| ▲ | gjsman-1000 9 hours ago |
| Steve Jobs famously never allowed free meals at Apple. Humans are psychologically incapable of assigning respect to things that are free; across the board - not donating to open-source, maxing out every dollar of food stamps, refusing to pay a dollar for an app if it has a free tier, even companies like AWS ripping off open source without any qualms. If you got an offer for a free relationship no strings attached, would you take it seriously? If someone on a street corner has artwork for $5 or $500, it could be the same piece of art, but which one gets more attention on first glance? If you want your work to be respected, do not make it open source. Your odds are slightly better at succeeding at acting. Remember that 97% of public GitHub repos have zero external users. |
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| ▲ | lkey 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Food stamps?? This is a ghoulish position, morally, financially, and as a matter of policy. We live in the richest country on planet earth and we eliminated child hunger here during COVID only to roll it back. It's not even 1.5% of the budget currently. Compare this to our military adventurism budget. Every $1 invested in SNAP generates $1.80 in economic activity, right now. Children need food to grow up and be 'productive', even if you don't see value in human life and are captial-maxxing; This is an important program for creating excess productivity. The same is true of well funded public schools. A well-fed and educated populous is optimal by every public metric. I doubt you are an actual member of the bourgeoisie, so I must conclude you just enjoy a starving and undereducated mass of parents and children you look down upon for their poor moral character? Adults need food to be 'productive' as well. Adults that are not afraid that they are going to starve commit fewer crimes. You want to 'save' some money? Eliminate means testing entirely and give every American have a baseline EBT card food budget per person in the household. No special virtuous food categories to make sure the poor know they are being watched. Just a monthly cash infusion spendable at all grocers. This way, walmart and other mega-corps won't be able to scam the government by creating positions that force their workers onto these means tested programs and lock them there. |
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| ▲ | tt24 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not even remotely related to what the parent comment said. | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You are arguing against a different argument than your parent. He implied that people using food stamps do not respect the effort it took to provide the food. You seem to be arguing whether food stamps are profitable. Your implication that people when not given free food will starve and that your parent commenter wants people to starve is clear manipulation. | | |
| ▲ | georgemcbay 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > He implied that people using food stamps do not respect the effort it took to provide the food. People using food stamps in the US often work full-time jobs making insufficient living wages from highly profitable companies like Walmart https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-... I imagine they probably have a better inherent understanding of real-world food production style work effort than the majority of those of us who post to sites like HN. |
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| ▲ | antonvs 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I doubt you are an actual member of the bourgeoisie I wouldn't be so sure of that on HN. (Also noting you're using the Marxist definition rather than the default dictionary definition, which is "middle class".) A well-paid tech employee with a non-trivial amount of company stock is, strictly speaking, an "owner of the means of production". Even if you want to quibble with that, their interests are certainly well-aligned with that group - to the point that you generally won't hear a peep out of them as things get more and more dystopian, because of what Upton Sinclair observed, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." > I must conclude you just enjoy a starving and undereducated mass of parents and children you look down upon for their poor moral character? It's much simpler than that. It's pure, unadulterated "I got mine and you ain't touchin' it". There's no real thinking that goes beyond that purely selfish position. The consequences aren't seriously considered, they're just taken as part of the natural order. Any causal connection is denied, rationalized by accusations of laziness, inferiority, etc. | | |
| ▲ | lkey 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're right, it's probably just that. My mistake to read too deeply into someone like this. I was using Marx's definition, and I am a member of that class, so defined. My existing wealth and ongoing income of seven figures is derived almost entirely from capital accumulation. I am knowingly and actively betraying my immediate class interest, here and elsewhere, because I'd rather my wealth increase more modestly to ensure we all live in vibrant society. I do think it is foolish for salaried white collar workers not to see what is coming and begin unionization efforts; Their interests are ever more misaligned with capital with every year that passes. | | |
| ▲ | hluska 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | How does missing the point and going on an unrelated rant help ensure we live in a vibrant society? Because I’m missing that part. | | |
| ▲ | lkey an hour ago | parent [-] | | His comment implies that people who use free services don't value them, they are naturally disrespectful, they are 'ripping off' hard workers, and are 'refusing to pay'. These are not neutral terms, they have historically (since Reagan at least) conservative valence. 'welfare queens' etc... If you didn't notice this sleight of hand in the original comment, that means he did his work correctly. His conclusion is that things should not be free and open, as a rule, because they won't generate money, attention, or respect if they are free. He included food stamps in the middle of his list. This choice is not neutral. The comment invites you to reframe your understanding of food stamps so as to later justify its dissolution as a result 'human nature'. Food stamps are not intended to function like the other products he listed. Food stamps are not intended to generate respect or direct revenue. Yet, he said that someone using the 'max' monthly budget of $300 for food, when making less that $26000, is part of the 'natural disrespect' continuum. Tell me, would you consider $300 a month on food excessive and disrespectful where you live?
$3.30 per meal, 3 times a day for 30.5 days? The whole structure of his 'disrespect' argument is a lie to begin with. People on food stamps do respect the value of being able to feed their families. Most Americans I've met see their need for food stamps as a moral stain. They want so badly to overcome their 'failure' by working even harder. Many will take second or third jobs with tenuous protections, and have their wages stolen ($2600 per person, on average, almost as much as food stamps pays). Either way, productivity goes up, inflation marches on, wages stay the same, and I'm the only one getting richer. Anywho that is why I replied in the manner I did, because the subtext was clearly hidden well enough for many people to need it pointed out. You are not immune to propaganda, doubly so for the propaganda you don't notice. |
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| ▲ | NeutralWanted 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | mannanj 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Seems you have good intention at heart and clearly care about people, and from my observation have some emotional processing and clearing to do to avoid sounding like you are lashing out at whoever internet stranger could fit your mold of comfort to emotionally dump on. Have you considered channeling that energy into advocacy or volunteerism? I feel you'd like that. | | |
| ▲ | r0p3 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Incredible troll lol. "Have you considered volunteering?" In response to frustration at a massive federal initiative being shut down is hilarious. | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Now, I'm not gonna endorse the original position, but on some level it's also a non-troll. Enough time spent at a soup kitchen will turn just about anybody into Ron Paul. If you want someone to have realistic opinions on social welfare programs based on their actual impact in reality and not emotion and indoctrination then putting them into an organization that's actually trying to maximize good done for their budget and/or in contact with the recipients is a good way to do it. | | |
| ▲ | r0p3 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | In my experience the more time I spent volunteering the less of a libertarian I became. Structural problems require structural solutions, and the market can only solve some of them. In any case, his reply didn't even address the main point and was very condescending. I respect the troll o7 |
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| ▲ | throw0101a 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Humans are psychologically incapable of assigning respect to things that are free I know a few people who had to make use of food banks and were grateful at the time for the donations of others. They now try to donate what they can as payback. |
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| ▲ | tonyedgecombe 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It took me a long time to realise that people value things by how much they pay for them, not by how much they cost to produce. It doesn't matter if that's software, a pair of trousers or a meal at a restaurant. This extends into the world of work as well. Employers that don't pay well tend to treat their employees poorly. |
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| ▲ | fc417fc802 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think that's backwards. If something is expensive those who don't value it won't pay and thus won't have. It's not that paying results in respect but rather a straightforward case of sample bias. | |
| ▲ | Imustaskforhelp 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am part of Lowendtalk community where hosting providers sometimes gives deals even better than hetzner/ovh etc. who are even impacted even more by the ram crisis but they are trying their best imo to not have prices be risen across the board. Sort of eating the 5x costs of ram. The entitlement is truly real at times. I think that sometimes I can be part of that entitlement too but I think I try to be respectful usually and say my concerns if I have any. This sort of becomes a circular because VPS at the very least do indicate support and good quality/atleast decent quality hardware. A server too cheap and too overprovisioned with steal factor (Like Contabo) is universally hated by people. But these are the same people who will take deals if they are the cheapest across the board (myself included at times, I have got an idle netcup vps for a few months for 10$ simply out of curiosity but I do think that's 10$ worth spent to get the idea of a public facing ipv4 but yea) So a lot of summer hosts/ deadpools (Scam-type) take on this opportunity and what they do is rent hardware for a month or year from other providers with large specs and split it into small chunks and give yearly, triannually, lifetime deals which can be too good to be true. Turns out that they are, as usually sme sort of scam type stuff happens after a year or two or three. This also makes it hard for new providers to try to prove their worth at times too if they are legit all within a market which is very price competitive. |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't think it was respect, as much as I respect what he did with Apple and tech in general. Every single story about money with Steve Jobs revolves around him refusing to give up any of it. He even scammed Steve Wozniak by lying to him how much they were being paid, to which Steve said he would have gladly given him money if he needed money. I don't think Steve needed it, he was like Mr. Krabs from Spongebob. Even his biological daughter, he refused to leave her a penny or acknowledge that she was his daughter, even after a court ordered DNA test proved she was his daughter. He paid the minimal in child support. For Steve Jobs it was not about respect or value, that's the lie. It was about greed. |
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| ▲ | Boxxed 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Pretty much matches my experience. Trying to sell something on Craig's list or whatever is pretty hit-or-miss, whether it's $5 or $500. But make it free, and people will bang down your door to try to get it. It could be a shoebox full of used soy sauce packets and you'll get people for days asking if it's still available. |
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| ▲ | qingcharles 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| At one startup there was unlimited free candy bars. We (devs) had to have a meeting with the office manager and tell them to remove them. We had zero self control. |
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| ▲ | rapnie 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The parent comment is downvoted into oblivion, but I read it as not necessarily saying "this is the way to do it" but rather "this is the harsh reality of rampant capitalist society" that we built around ourselves (we all carry responsibility here), where only money speaks and people "respect" full wallets coughing up the dough. I spent most my time in FOSS realms the past decade, and many people who are even participants in free software development themself often do not notice where and how value is extracted, and how they indirectly or directly play a role in that. As for value extraction, have a look at this article and weep: https://www.heise.de/en/news/Harvard-study-Open-source-has-a... OTOH this also shows the huge potential FOSS has, if it manages to only slightly shift that balance in their favor. |
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| ▲ | beepbooptheory 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Free as in beer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre Its weird to be all evo psych about this either way IMO, free as in gratis has only been situationaly possible at all for very short time of human history. All armchair philosophy needs to take it into account! As soon as you recognize that, we're forced to question such pat appeals to nature or what not, and drawn necessarily to consider how systems make humans one way or another. Put another way, this position is incredibly fatalistic, as well as kinda sad and lonely to my ears. |
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| ▲ | beej71 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Oh shit... Ok... Um... Beej's Guide to Network Programming is now $500! Respect me! |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh! Thank you mighty capitalist god! Now I appreciate the value add you bring this world! I was blind before, but now I see! |
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| ▲ | antonvs 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Humans are psychologically incapable of assigning respect to things that are free Citation needed. You're describing a particular tendency, not some absolute property of human psychology. It's also a behavior that's greatly affected by social construction. In the US, the attitude you're describing is much more prevalent than in some other countries, because of cultural biases. |