I appreciate that there are people out there working on stuff like /e/OS, but the number one question I have when I learn about a mobile OS that isn't iOS or "Googled" Android is: will the banking and payment apps I need to operate in the modern world run on this OS?

A lot of people don't think this way because they haven't had any problems. But then one day it happens to you and you realize, ok, this is the one thing that matters - you're in a cashless store and the only way you can pay for your meal is to use Approved Apple or Approved Google operating systems.

Where I live, the app my electricity utility provides for viewing and paying my account DISABLES ITSELF FOREVER if you so much as enable USB debugging on your phone (even after you've disabled it again).

To their credit Graphene maintains a global database of which of these apps work and don't. They're the only ones I know of so a thousand upvotes to Graphene OS.

But for my banks, the records in that database are grim. They won't run on Graphene, and they don't respond to reports about it.

One of my banks just discontinued its web UI because "people don't use it anymore, they use the app only."

This is how they're going to get us, folks. This is how we're going to lose it all. Writing code alone will not solve this. It will require some kind of collective action to defend our liberties. Some parts of the world are already lost. So this situation will likely come to a jurisdiction near you eventually: to make a transaction you will need permission from Google, Apple, Visa, Mastercard, or it won't happen. Then that four company list will start to shrink.

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enriquto 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the app my electricity utility provides for viewing and paying my account DISABLES ITSELF FOREVER if you so much as enable USB debugging on your phone (even after you've disabled it again).

These are self-inflicted problems by these apps. Nothing to do with the OS. These apps simply don't work. Complain to the companies that push these broken apps to you.

Would you buy a microwave oven that kills itself if you play the wrong kind of music in your kitchen?

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abustamam 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The problems may be inflicted by these apps but the reality is that in many cases you're stuck with them. Electric company freezes your account if you enable USB debugging? Well, you can't choose a new electric company. We can complain to these vendors all we want but they just ignore us.

So these problems become problems of the OS, not because the OS has a problem, but because it affects the reality of using the OS.

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abighamb 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Is it such a burden to write them a letter stating, "Because you have decided to disable my electronic access, I am notifying you that I withdraw my consent to e-delivery. Please provide me statements and directions to mail you a check for payment." Maybe spend 20-30 min to find the specific laws that give you the right to do that and remind them of their timelines to comply.

Send a letter like that certified. It gets attention, and the time to write and mail a check really isn't, if you batch your bills, more than using an app.

We do have ways to push their inconvenience back on them.

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safety1st 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It is great that you have the right in your jurisdiction to do that. Where I am, they just shut off your power if you don't pay.

It's a big and hairy world out there. Having lived on three continents and traveled to some pretty wild places, I always get a kick out of seeing which rights people have and assume that the rest of the world also has.

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abustamam 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This only works if the company cares though.

	▲	abighamb an hour ago \| parent [-]
		This a pretty general recipe to make a company care. A Professional letter letting them know that you know your rights, and that they know your rights (Them getting your letter is your proof of that) is what the beginning of a someone losing his bonus for a compliance incident looks like. Companies don't care about you, or even shareholders, they care about the incentives of leadership.

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Forgeties79 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not everyone has the time and resources to battle their utilities and bank(s). I know it’s important and sustained effort is necessary even if it’s hard, but we are talking about massive populations here and most people simply can’t or won’t fight that battle on their own. Organizing a large pushback is also a huge effort. And at the end of the day, there is an easy solution for folks: buy a “proper” smart phone that “just works” because it solves the problem now.

We’ve gotten to the point where unfortunately it is a luxury to fight for your privacy and consumer rights.

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bornfreddy 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Fighting for your rights is usually not the easy path, yes. It's been like that since forever.

	▲	Forgeties79 7 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Yes that is correct. So what do you suggest people do? What is a realistic way to move the needle? Because I can tell you now that (as I detailed in another comment) asking someone to change their banks, utilities, etc. to accommodate their smartphone choice is not a serious suggestion, nor is asking everyone to wage war with all the services they engage with. They’re simply not going to do it no matter how many passionate speeches or flippant comments you throw out there. They’re going to buy the thing that solves the immediate problem of not having access to critical services in their lives. If their amazing open source phone can’t pay their bills, it’s going in the bin. To be clear I want the same thing you do. But just going “do it it’s important” is not going to make it happen.
	▲	abustamam 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Well, we gotta choose our battles, right? It's easy to get collective support for visible oppression and fascism. Everyone sees it on the news. It's hard to get support for "lemme use a smartphone that isn't apple or android." the average person doesn't care. Not saying that we should just give up. But as the above poster said, it's a luxury that takes a lot of time and resources.

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seanhunter 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It obviously depends on where you live. In my country you certainly con choose a new electric company. I mention that because we really should use consumer choice to overcome these types of problems where we can. Ie if you can switch to a bank/electricity provider/whatever that has a less terrible app it’s really good to do so.

	▲	abustamam 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I agree on principle. I'm not sure if everywhere in the US is like this, but everywhere I've lived in California basically had a monopolistic electric and gas provider. For things where we do have a choice, yes I agree.

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6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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Forgeties79 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You’re implying we have more choice than we do and asking “the average joe” to change banks to accommodate their smartphone is not a serious suggestion.

My utility company, for instance, literally won’t let you navigate their site with a VPN running. These kinds of practices are commonplace and becoming standard.

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idiotsecant 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I promise your electric company accepts payments outside of an app on your phone. I further promise that other banks are available that don't have terrible apps. These problems are way more surmountable than you're painting them here.

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mghackerlady 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Plus, you can still do electronic banking and payments. Use your computer, it's a much better experience anyways

	▲	vinceguidry 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Until they start locking that behind shitty proprietary "security" solutions too.

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safety1st 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The alternative they accept is traveling down to their office and handing them cash, no joke. Phone app or cash. No website, never has been one. No snail mail because they "modernized" and discontinued it some time ago.

But I'm OK because one of my banking apps has some method of reading my contract number from the disabled electricity company app, and telling me how much I should pay and then it fires off a payment to them. Even though I can no longer use the electricity app directly because I enabled USB debugging once, the banking app is somehow still able to pick up this info from it.

Of course, said banking app refuses to run on Graphene or any of these other Google Play-less OSes, and the bank doesn't respond to inquiries about that issue, multiple people have tried.

The other bank I use does respond, and says they'll never run on "alternative OSes" because "alternative OSes are too insecure." They don't respond to followups.

I'm just saying man. A lot of people think this stuff is trivially solved because there is an option available to them in their home country. You don't know how big and nuts this world of 8 billion people and 200 countries is. This stuff varies beyond imagination, sometimes for the much worse.

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lostmsu 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can't you pay with a card?