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jjcm 4 hours ago

This is the strongest statement in the post:

> They have threatened to remove us from their systems if we maintain these safeguards; they have also threatened to designate us a “supply chain risk”—a label reserved for US adversaries, never before applied to an American company—and to invoke the Defense Production Act to force the safeguards’ removal. These latter two threats are inherently contradictory: one labels us a security risk; the other labels Claude as essential to national security.

This contradictory messaging puts to rest any doubt that this is a strong arm by the governemnt to allow any use. I really like Anthropic's approach here, which is to in turn state that they're happy to help the Governemnt move off of Anthropic. It's a messaging ploy for sure, but it puts the ball in the current administration's court.

panarky an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Does the Defense Production Act force employees to continue working at Anthropic?

nerdsniper an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No. It really only binds the corporation, but it does hold the executives/directors personally responsible for compliance so they’d be under a lot of pressure to figure out how to fix enough leaks in the ship to keep it afloat. Any individual director/executive could quit with little issue, but if they all did in a way that compromised the corporations ability to function, the courts could potentially utilize injunctions/fines/jail time to compel compliance from corporate leaders.

Also there’s probably a way to abuse the Taft-Hawley act beyond current recognition to force the employees to stay by designating any en-masse quitting to be a “strike / walk off / collective action”. The consequences to the individuals for this is unclear - the act really focuses on punishing the union rather than the employees. It would take some very creative maneuvering to do anything beyond denying unemployment benefits and telling the other big AI companies (Google / ChatGPT / xAI) to blacklist them. And probably using any semi-relevant three letter agency to make them regret their choice and deliver a chilling effect to anyone else thinking of leaving (FBI, DHS, IRS, SEC all come to mind).

If the administration could figure out how to nationalize the company (like replace the leadership with ideologically-aligned directors who sell it to the government) then any now-federal-employees declared to be quitting as part of a collective action could be fined $1,000 per day or incarcerated for up to one year.

It’s worth noting that this thesis would get an F grade at any accredited law school. Forcing people to work is a violation of the 13th amendment. But interpretations of the constitution and federal law are very dynamic these days so who knows.

tosapple 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

SilverElfin 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The real issue is if Trump and Hegseth will create fake wars to nationalize a private corporation, they’ll definitely declare wars to extend the presidency.

deadbabe 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Presidency can’t be extended by wars.

jaegrqualm 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

FDR's tenure might have created an amendment to that effect, but it's not like this administration hasn't used a legal loophole before.

Perhaps there's a war, that a misguided congress won't declare as such, and a certain vice president that runs for president, with a certain someone as his vice president...

PontifexMinimus 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not constitutionally, at any rate.

SlightlyLeftPad 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

What would happen if he tried by not vacating at the end of his term, when challenged in court, shut down by his own Supreme Court? I mean let’s be real, all it really takes is him not giving up the white house. I sometimes wonder.

goatlover 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Steve Bannon advised Trump to do this in 2020. Question is what would the Secret Service and Pentagon do once the election is certified for the winning candidate? If their loyalty remains to the Constitution, Trump would be forcibly removed.

krapp 5 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

We went through this when it looked like he might not leave last time. What happens is the Marines show up and politely throw his ass to the curb.

You do not under any circumstances gotta hand it to the American military but they do seem unwilling to play a role in Trump's let's say extraconstitutional ambitions. At least a junta doesn't seem likely. Without the military behind him he's just a senile old pedophile. What's he going to do, lock himself into the Oval Office?

vlovich123 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

… not yet. The problem with a norm breaking presidency like Trump’s and the GOP power structure is that no norm is safe, including elections.

12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
NullPrefix 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Zelensky's presidency was supposed to end couple of years ago. Would it be different in USA?

0ckpuppet 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes,

0ckpuppet 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

"extend the presidency" the bots gave infected your brain.

mandeepj 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

First of all, there's no such thing as "Department of War". A department name change is legal/binding only after it's approved by the Senate. Senator Kelly is still calling it DoD (Department of Defense).

> Mass domestic surveillance.

Since when has DoD started getting involved with the internal affairs of the country?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_De...

Lerc 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It's whatever what the people who have the power want to call it. What is written on a piece of paper is irrelevant if it is not acted upon.

If the rename gets struck down then they don't have the power. If it doesn't they have the power.

There are many dictatorships that built their power in the face of people claiming that they can't do what they planned because it was illegal.

Until they did it anyway.

culi 9 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

They've already spent millions on the name change. It's also the original name of the department. IMO it's a more honest name

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> this is a strong arm by the governemnt to allow any use

It’s a flippant move by Hegseth. I doubt anyone at the Pentagon is pushing for this. I doubt Trump is more than cursorily aware. Maybe Miller got in the idiot’s ear, who knows.

cmrdporcupine an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It definitely has the aroma of either Bannon or Miller or both.

0xDEAFBEAD 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Believe it or not Steve Bannon is quite concerned about AI development:

>Over on Steve Bannon's show, War Room -- the influential podcast that's emerged as the tip of the spear of the MAGA movement -- Trump's longtime ally unloaded on the efforts behind accelerating AI, calling it likely "the most dangerous technology in the history of mankind."

>...

>"You have more restrictions on starting a nail salon on Capitol Hill or to have your hair braided, then you have on the most dangerous technologies in the history of mankind," Bannon told his listeners.

https://abcnews.com/US/inside-magas-growing-fight-stop-trump...

xpe an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> It’s a flippant move by Hegseth.

Care to convert this into a prediction?: are you predicting Hegseth will back down?

> I doubt anyone at the Pentagon is pushing for this.

I don't see why this sentence matters much. Help me understand why this matters to you? Perhaps you mean that you doubt anyone under Hegseth (the SecDef/SecWar, who runs the Pentagon) will cooperate?

One can view Hegseth as unqualified, even a walking publicity stunt while also taking his power seriously.

tz1490 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It matters because the whole media is selling this as a Pentagon initiative, while probably 75% in the Pentagon think this is snake oil just like the previous Microsoft VR goggles.

If they don't oppose directly, large bureaucracies know how to drag their feet until the midterms at least, if not until 2028. Soldiers literally dragged their feet at the glorious Trump military parade, when they walked disinterested and casually instead of marching.

relaxing 30 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you talk like this?

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
intermerda 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

SilverElfin 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I see this a lot on the immigration topic. They’re simultaneously too rich and taking over everything, but also low paid slave labor displacing white Christians everywhere.

grosswait an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Where is my eyeroll emoji. Contradictory statements are a hallmark of politics. Please stop over using the term fascism. It’s already close to losing all meaning.

djeastm an hour ago | parent | next [-]

>It’s already close to losing all meaning.

On the contrary, seeing it take hold before our very eyes gives it more meaning than it ever had in the pages of the history books.

xpe 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

There is a difference between a politician making a contradictory statement and the largest agency in the United States using probably unconstitutional pressure tactics against a business.

calvinmorrison 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

More like the government is treating this like the near term weapon it actually is and, unlike the Manhattan project, the government seems to have little to no control.

fwipsy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Anthropic has been pushing for commonsense AI regulation. Our current administration has refused to regulate AI and attempted to prevent state regulation.

"The government doesn't have control of this technology" is an odd way to think about "the government can't force a company to apply this technology dangerously."

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Note that they always attempt to exert control they don’t have. They’re always bluffing, and they keep losing. Respond accordingly.

latexr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Respond accordingly.

“Four key words (…) The only phrase that can genuinely make a weak bully go away, and that is: Fuck You, Make Me.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ohPToBog_-g&t=1619s

RobotToaster 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Paper tigers

gclawes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The government should be entitled to any lawful use of a product they purchase, not uses dictated solely by the provider. It's up to courts to decide what lawful use is, it's not up to these companies to dictate.

mediaman an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The product is a service, and they agreed to a contract. Now they don't like the contract.

Is your view that contracts with the government should be meaningless? That the government should be able to unilaterally, and without recourse, change any contract they previously agreed to for any reason, and the vendor should be forced at gunpoint to comply?

If you do believe this, then what do you believe the second order effects will be when contracts with the government have no meaning? How will vendors to the government respond? Will this ultimately help or hinder the American government's efficacy?

danorama 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

Seriously.

Hegseth trying to play “I’m altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further” just shows this gang’s total lack of comprehension of second-order effects.

isodev an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's up to courts to decide what lawful use is

No, it’s up to the government to create policy and legislation that outlines what is lawful or not and install mechanisms to monitor and regulate usage.

The fact that an arm of the government wants to go YOLO mode is merely a symptom of the deeper problem that this government is currently not effectual.

grosswait an hour ago | parent [-]

Do you have any insight that what they want to do is YOLO, as opposed something your sure you’ll disagree with?

isodev an hour ago | parent [-]

YOLO here refers to unsafe usage of LLMs. Your government is supposed to make legislation that protects all of its citizens, it’s not “what you agree with” game.

mech422 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Terms of Service would like to have a word....

Not like limiting uses of products is anything new

rpdillon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not really. Services are provided on terms acceptable to both parties. This isn't about what's legal, it's about the terms of the service agreement.

toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Providers are free who they choose to do business with, or not do business with. Are you arguing that the government should be able to compel a provider to allow their use when it’s well documented the government does not respect nor adhere to the rule of law? I think you misunderstand commerce and contract law.

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Strange take

bdangubic 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Amazing to read this. Hoping you are not an American… Reading this thread is like comrade after comrade!

quietbritishjim 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those aren't contradictory at all. If I need a particular type of bolt for my fighter jet but I can only get it from a dodgy Chinese company, then that bolt is a supply chain risk (because they could introduce deliberate defects or simply stop producing it) and also clearly important to national security. In fact, it's a supply chain risk because is important to national security.

NewsaHackO 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, in your example, if the dodgy Chinese company is a supply chain risk due to sabotage, why would they invoke an act to force production of the bolts from the same company for use for national defense preparedness, which would be clearly a national security risk?

snickerbockers an hour ago | parent [-]

The OP specifically mentions this in the context of "systems" (a vague, poorly-defined term) and "classified networks" in which Anthropic products are already present. Without more details on what "systems" these are or the terms of the contracts under which these were produced it's difficult to make a definitive judgement, but broadly speaking it's not a good thing if the government is relying on a product which Anthropic has designed to arbitrarily refuse orders by its own judgement.

I really don't see how anybody could think a private defense contractor should be entitled to countermand the military by leveraging the control it has over products it has already sold. Maybe the terms of their contract entitled them to some discretion over what orders the product will carry out, but there's no such claim in the OP.

estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's easy to resolve an alleged contradiction by just ignoring one half of it lol

Try introducing DPA invocation into your analogy and let's see where it goes!

gipp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Supply chain risk" is a specific designation that forbids companies that work with the DOD from working with that company. It would not be applied in your scenario.

ray_v 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The analogy doesn't work here ... In your scenario they are ok with using the bolt as long as the Chinese company promises to remove deliberate defects - which is of course absurd ... AND contradictory.

gclawes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> This contradictory messaging puts to rest any doubt that this is a strong arm by the governemnt to allow any use.

Why the hell should companies get to dictate on their own to the government how their product is used?

randerson an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Because technology companies know more about their product's capabilities and limitations than a former Fox News host? And because they know there's a risk of mass civilian casualties if you put an LLM in control of the world's most expensive military equipment?

theptip 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Every company is free to determine its terms of use. If USG doesn’t like them they should sign a contract with someone else.

grosswait an hour ago | parent [-]

Every company is free to state their terms of use, but not all have been upheld when challenged

otterley 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

What’s your angle here? I’m genuinely curious. If the government told you that you had to muck out portable bathrooms with your bare hands even if you didn’t want to, wouldn’t you find that objectionable?

singleshot_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Same reason they cant quarter troops in your house: the law

Hnrobert42 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because the government is here to serve us. Not the other way around.

no-dr-onboard an hour ago | parent [-]

The government has a responsibility to protect its constituents. Sometimes that requires collaboration. This isn’t hard.

epistasis an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Is this one of those times? Seems pretty clear it's not.

The third amendment is there for a reason. I am a third amendment absolutist and willing to put my life on the line to defend it.

staticassertion 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I wonder what you can't justify this way.

bathtub365 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are a couple of notable Supreme Court cases in this area:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/303_Creative_LLC_v._Elenis

throw0101c an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Why the hell should companies get to dictate on their own to the government how their product is used?

Well:

"""

Imagine that you created an LLC, and that you are the sole owner and employee.

One day your LLC receives a letter from the government that says, "here is a contract to go mine heavy rare earth elements in Alaska." You don't want to do that, so you reply, "no thanks!"

There is no retaliation. Everything is fine. You declined the terms of a contract. You live in a civilized capitalist republic. We figured this stuff out centuries ago, and today we have bigger fish to fry.

"""

* https://x.com/deanwball/status/2027143691241197638

grosswait 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is a terrible analogy. Imagine you’re an LLC that signed a contract to mine minerals, but your terms state you’d only mine in areas you felt safe. OSHA says it’s safe but you disagree, because….. any number of reason unknowable to an outsider. Maybe you just don’t like this OSHA leadership. That is more like what is happening.

Signing a contract with Anthropic assuming they wouldn’t rug pull over their own moral soapbox was mistake number one.

I love anthropic products and heavily use them daily, but they need to get off their high horse. They complain they’re being robbed by Chinese labs - robbed of what they stole from copyright holders. Anthropic doesn’t have the moral high ground they try to claim.

otterley 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The contract is clear, though: the condition is stated in objective terms: “in areas you felt safe.” If the Government agrees to this, then they should be bound just like any private counterparty would. If the Government didn’t agree to this, they should have negotiated that term out in favor of their preferred terms.

WD-42 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Is it a rug pull? Where in the terms of service does anthropic say their models can be used for autonomous weapons and mass domestic surveillance?

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
bdangubic 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You from China? :)

etchalon 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What the fuck is wrong with you.

lucaslazarus 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you hate free markets?