I feel like the idea that X doesn't owe you Y is fundamentally at odds with the fact that humans are a cooperative species and survive the best when they are cooperating. A choir can hold a note together because individuals can stop singing to breathe, safely covered by peers who will take their turn to breathe later. What is the point of organizing socially if not for the benefit of all society members?

I know we have to balance inefficiency and optimal allocation of resources... but I agree it doesn't seem optimal for social wellbeing to remove people from their access to health and risking their ability to house and feed themselves without a financial need to do so (like Block going bankrupt).

▲

ahepp an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to put those responsibilities on individual firms. In the USA, achieving maximum employment has been a mandate for the Federal Reserve to achieve through monetary policy. There are many advantages to allowing individual firms to optimize for productivity. There are also a lot of harms caused by forcing firms to adopt unproductive methods. Even Keynes' joking solution for unemployment was that the treasury might bury bottles of money for private industry to dig up.

▲

singpolyma3 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So you think companies should hire and pay employees they don't have any use for out of charity?

▲

bananamogul 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"humans are a cooperative species"

Humans are violent, self-centered tribalists. What species are you referring to? Not homo sapiens.

	▲	edgyquant 18 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Tribalism implies cooperation
	▲	zimza an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		This has always been and always will be an excuse for the person saying it to be a "violent, self-centered tribalist". Humans have worked together for the benefit of the community for the longest time. Rugged individualism is inherently linked to capitalism.
	▲	Imustaskforhelp 5 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		I think we Humans can be both cooperative species and violent,self-centered tribalists species and definitely all the grey area between the two at the same time as well.
	▲	KittenInABox 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		I do mean homo sapiens. Humans are a cooperative species. They will hunt and gather together in loose communities naturally, sharing excess resources even if individuals are not directly contributing to the resource creation due to being too young, too old, sick or injured. Having inter-societal competition doesn't mean we don't still have cooperative society. Just because ants will fight other ants in different colonies doesn't mean ants are not a social species.
	▲	johnnienaked 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		And every other civilized society except America builds internal power structures that inhibit violent self-centeredism. Maybe it's time we do the same?
	▲	retinaros 5 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		outside of the west yes.

▲

simianwords 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

fundamentally you see jobs as more important than the end product. this is a tension i keep finding in many minds.

▲

KittenInABox 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I see fundamentally human wellbeing as more important. Jobs are just the structure society has built as a gateway for this.

▲

simianwords 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

exactly - end consumers like you and me will end up having to pay for their jobs indirectly.

i personally want products i purchase to be cheaper and i don't want to be paying for products that are costly simply because they are hiring people for "human wellbeing".

i would rather people work in productive places than just exist in a company for some reason.

▲

inigyou 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Alternatively, instead of things being cheaper, you could receive that amount more money.

▲

simianwords 4 hours ago | parent [-]

who? the employees? for doing what? i don't want to live in a world where people are getting paid when they don't add any value

▲

veryemartguy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I too spend my life ensuring that my only purpose in life is creating shareholder value

▲

inigyou 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

you are literally complaining about the idea of having more money

	▲	simianwords 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		more money for doing nothing? i don't want to live in a world like that. what part of this is not clear? two options - the 4000 employees can still be employed in block - thats around $600,000,000 that goes into literally no value and this is price borne by us consumers - or the 4000 employees get fired and work in different companies that actually require them so that we as consumers can actually buy more products by choosing option 1, you not only accept that as consumers we pay more for the product, but also miss out on other valuable work the 4000 employees can do. no good economy runs this way.

▲

singpolyma3 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Then I suggest fixing society or finding a better one

▲

zimza an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are trying to pitch marxist theory to a bunchof liberals. It won't end well. (and it's not, judging by the first comments)

▲

MattGaiser 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> with the fact that humans are a cooperative species and survive the best when they are cooperating.

I dispute that this is a fact. Maybe within a small group, but startups shouldn't be possible if masses of more cooperating people led to better outcomes. A large company should always win there and that does not happen.

> What is the point of organizing socially if not for the benefit of all society members?

We don't come anywhere close to this on a global scale. Most countries aren't this way on a national scale.

	▲	loktarogar 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Startups generally _don't_ end up with better outcomes. Large companies stay stable, startups are volatile and often end in failure. Stability means removal of volatility, which means to stay stable they end up becoming more generalised, rather than the laser focus a small team like a startup can have. That laser focus can work out when applied to the right problem at the right time, but is very much not a guarantee.