| ▲ | LucasBrandt 4 hours ago |
| But lots of people _do_ already ride buses! There are already current riders, and potential riders who are making these marginal decisions. Occasional riders will decide between transport modes based on the trip - making marginal improvements (or regressions) would change the rate at which they choose to ride the bus. Even if every current person's mind has been completely made up based on past experience, there are always "new adults" learning to get around and forming opinions. So I strongly disagree: marginal improvements DO matter. And I agree with the author that this would be a relatively easy improvement to deliver for many cities. I live in Chicago with the third-closest stop spacing per the article. I'm personally able to walk a block or two further to a bus stop no problem. Bus stop consolidation would save me a lot of time over the course of a year! |
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| ▲ | wsatb an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| I also live in Chicago and wouldn’t mind walking extra to another stop, but Chicago also has a massive traffic problem, particularly post pandemic. During rush hour, the bus is stop and go already. I’m really curious how this would pan out here, but it can’t be the only solution. |
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| ▲ | Retric 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I'm personally able to walk a block or two further “A block or 2” each way at the start and destination is a significant difference (4-8 blocks) for most elderly people. Busses fill two different roles, as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation. They can serve a vital role for cities without the kind of investment it would take to make most typical HN reader consider them as a primary means of transportation. As such latency isn’t necessarily as critical vs coverage here. |
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| ▲ | bccdee 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation One bus route can't wear two hats. Faster, sparser routes are typically complemented by slow, meandering collector routes which provide the kind of backstop you describe. Moreover, elderly and disabled people can use paratransit [1], which exists precisely to serve people with mobility issues too severe for regular transit. Anyway, I reject the notion of buses as a second-tier transit option reserved for poor and disabled people. The only way poor people ever get decent service is when they use the same infrastructure that affluent people do. A bus system that doesn't serve the middle class is a system that will quickly lose its funding and become inadequate for anyone to use. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratransit | | |
| ▲ | Retric 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Around 1/5 of the US population is elderly ~1/4 by 2050, add in moderately disabled people and this isn’t a small population we are talking about. Paratransit is for a far smaller percentage of the population due to the significant expense. |
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| ▲ | iamcalledrob an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think this is a US-centric perspective. In the US, buses (and public transport in general), are thought of as social programmes. Anyone can use them, but they are really for people who can't drive or are too poor to own a car. The rider makeup then looks like that. The elderly and the poor, sadly. Services run at a huge loss and are dependent on massive and unpopular government subsidies. Quality of service is bad. There's a stigma to using it. You end up with long, slow bus lines because this allows as many of the current demographic (elderly, poor) to take the bus. And there are always bailouts or brutal cuts on the horizon. You end up at a sort-of local maxima of inadequacy. In an alternate universe, public transport is run to compete with the car, and attracts all demographics. Day-to-day operations are un-subsidised, and therefore relatively expensive. It competes on value. People use it because it's a better experience than driving. This alternate universe is a city like London. Transport for London has a balanced budget, and despite what grumpy Brits like to say, quality of service is on an ever-upwards trajectory. In my opinion, operating transport as transportation programme, not a social programme, is how you get more adoption in the long term. You make public transport attractive to more demographics. | | |
| ▲ | analog31 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This idea occurred to me while I was traveling in Europe. Many of their trains have two classes of cars, where the first class is just slightly nicer. This could be done with buses too. Just alternate buses on the same route, that are expensive and free. The poor can take the free bus, and those who want a more exclusive social experience can pay for the expensive bus. I can't make any excuses for the social and class implications, but if it got more people on the bus, it might only need to be a temporary measure. | |
| ▲ | xp84 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Spot-on analysis. I agree that transport should operate on a basically break-even basis, but offset in two ways: 1. Where the Government wants to subsidize some group (e.g. help the disadvantaged by giving them discounts) they should pay the fair price to the transit agency out of the budget of Welfare, not drag on the financials of the transport agency. In other words, it shouldn't be possible that the transport agency is insolvent only because most of their customers are paying next to nothing. Discussions about whether we should spend a certain sum on subsidizing the poor to ride the bus/train/etc are purely welfare budget discussions. 2. The Government should move additional money into the system when they realize an expansion of transport helps further societal goals: e.g. congestion pricing funds should help to expand transit, or the government pays part of the cost to build new rail service to reduce congestion on the roads. | | |
| ▲ | iamcalledrob 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Incidentally, London has a "Freedom Pass" (free transport for retirees), which is funded in the way you describe. Instead of TfL being forced to take the loss, they are reimbursed by local government cost of the transport. As an aside, I also take some issue with this pass being completely free to use. In my experience, people end up using it to go a single stop just because it's free, so why not -- which slows bus service for everyone else. I think it should be 20p per journey or something like that. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | Retric 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Busses get tiny subsides in the US. It’s a large percentage of total bus revenue by design, and a significant expense for some local governments. But the number only look large because of how we split the vast majority of government spending into federal and state budgets with local budgets being relatively anemic by comparison. | | |
| ▲ | iamcalledrob 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The farebox recovery ratio in the US is awful. Most cities are somewhere between 5-25% of operating expenses coming from fares. Perhaps the tiny subsidies (in absolute terms) are because the bus systems are just so small? SFMTA's farebox recovery is around 25%. London Underground is about 130%. Osaka Subway is 209%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio |
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| ▲ | eptcyka 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sure, lets have the minority of the population force us into design choices that are detrimental to the majority of bus users. When living in many a European city, I have chosen to walk instead of using a bus route due to the frequent stops making the bus trip a lot more expensive and marginally quicker. I have also lived in places where the eldery get a separate service, tailored to them, if they need it. Works a lot better IMO. | | | |
| ▲ | xp84 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Having lived in SF I've seen many cycles where the SFMTA says "We'd like to make (insert any changes)..." and the 'advocates' immediately come out of the woodwork to make the argument you're making, about how walking another block or two is impossible for some constituents. Fundamentally as another commenter here said, a bus "can't wear two hats." In most large US cities, the bus, and sometimes the subway (if one exists), is mostly a welfare program, and its target demographic is the elderly, the poor, and the homeless. Two of those groups are rarely in any hurry. The fact that urban professionals also rely on transit to actually get to work is not very much considered in the decisions ultimately made. This is why any changes to it are so fraught. To actually serve both populations, you'd need to have two independent systems, but that would represent a tremendous amount of incremental cost. That's why they used to have (do they still? I'd guess not, post-pandemic) buses paid for by Apple, Google, Facebook etc. to shuttle people to work -- it's something the city government could never accomplish because the choices that make transit useful to those with jobs make it problematic for the other group. | | |
| ▲ | Retric 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The US already has a completely separate model where we send yellow busses to pick up and drop off school kids which involve buses going to a large fraction of US homes 4 times a day 180 days a year for minimal expenses that’s free at the point of use. Nothing stops you have adding express bus routes, thus allowing busses to work for yet another population. Further, bus networks are inherently cheap as long as they see reasonable ridership numbers it’s more economically efficient than cars. | |
| ▲ | mulmen 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | In Seattle large employers still run their own private busses. This has been going on since long before the pandemic. These busses often tie in to existing transit options. They take you from the office to a neighborhood transit hub. |
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| ▲ | miltonlost 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > I live in Chicago with the third-closest stop spacing per the article. I'm personally able to walk a block or two further to a bus stop no problem. Bus stop consolidation would save me a lot of time over the course of a year! Until there' a snowstorm, and no one shovels. And you have a broken leg, or are elderly, or disabled. Sure, it might save you personally some time, but we live in a society and should try to help out the one's who need help. |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not feasible to have a bus stop right in front of every house. It's unavoidable that most people are going to have to walk a bit. How far is reasonable, is a matter of trade-offs. It also depends on how fine grained the network is. If there are buslines every block, it's annoying if they don't stop there. But you have to walk a block or two to get to a bus line anyway, walking that bit more to get to the stop itself, matters a lot less. | | |
| ▲ | JoshTriplett 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It's not feasible to have a bus stop right in front of every house. And this is why point-to-point transportation is almost always faster and more convenient, if you can afford to use it. (That load-bearing "if" is important, though.) | | |
| ▲ | xmprt an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > And this is why point-to-point transportation is almost always faster and more convenient Point-to-point transportation is faster and more convenient because: 1. we don't have bus lanes so buses are forced to sit in the same traffic as cars and
2. buses are often underfunded so have slow/infrequent service. Point to point transportation is often slower and less convenient if buses and public transit is done right. I can count on my fingers the number of times I used an Uber or drove a car in the 1 month that I stayed in Europe - this was going out every day, in multiple cities, rural and urban, and across different countries. This is a good thing! If more people use public transit when it's possible, it opens up the roads for the handful of people who actually NEED to use a car. | |
| ▲ | njarboe 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Self driving cars for hire (Waymo, Tesla, others) can be that point-to-point system that is affordable. We will just have to build tunnels to deal with the increase in traffic. Hopefully the Boring Company or someone else can get tunneling costs way down. | | |
| ▲ | janalsncm an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If you are not being facetious, what you are describing is closer to a subway system, which has the disadvantage of being very expensive. | |
| ▲ | mulmen 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As long as one of those points is a transit stop then yeah, robotaxis make sense. In that model you don’t need the tunnels. They make even more sense if they are a bit larger and can accommodate multiple people at once. Something like a large van or small bus. | |
| ▲ | JoshTriplett 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hopefully someone else, so it actually happens and isn't overpromised and underdelivered. (Also, tunnels are useful not just for the increase in traffic, but for moving car traffic away from non-car traffic, which makes both kinds of traffic safer, faster, and more efficient.) |
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| ▲ | cyberax 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, it's not unavoidable. Just ditch the buses and switch to cars, soon to be self-driving. Even the rush hour traffic is trivially solved by mild carpooling (small vans for 4-6 people). | | |
| ▲ | wussboy an hour ago | parent [-] | | Not Just Bikes makes a compelling argument that self driving cars are not the answer, and will almost certainly make things worse |
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| ▲ | crummy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So... Should the bus stops be even closer together? | |
| ▲ | ecshafer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Does Chicago not mandate people shovel their drives ways? In most towns/cities in upstate new york you can get a fine if you don't shovel your sidewalk. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not in Chicago but where I am you have 24 hours after the snow stops to shovel your sidewalk. And realistically, they don't start handing out fines until at least a few days after that, if at all. | |
| ▲ | Filligree an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | What? Why do they care whether people shovel their driveway? |
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| ▲ | kjkjadksj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The solution for that is offering express routes not forcing everyone onto a slow frequently stopping local bus and making everyone worse off for it. | | |
| ▲ | cozzyd 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | that's right, the best solution is probably something like every other bus (excepting very low frequency buses that have fewer than 5-6 buses per hour) to only stop at every other stop (of course always including interchange points). |
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