Remix.run Logo
ryandrake 3 hours ago

> Something about having the whole supply chain in one place

I can't find the source but I thought I read somewhere that the major manufacturing cities in China are all geographically laid out like giant assembly lines. The companies that process the raw materials are located mostly inland, then the companies that form those raw materials into metal and plastic stock are next door, and then the companies that take that stock and make components are next door to them, and the companies that input those components and output subassemblies are next door to them, and so on all the way down to the harbor where the companies that produce finished products output directly onto the loading docks where the ships await.

The US can't even zone a residential neighborhood without lawyers and special interests jamming things up for decades through endless impact studies and litigation. How is it going to compete with a country that can lay out entire cities, organizing the value chain geographically towards the ocean?

SaltyBackendGuy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This reminds me of a great freakonomics podcast that talked about China being run by engineers and America being run by lawyers.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/china-is-run-by-engineers-a...

Avicebron 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Authoritarian central planning isn't an inherent trait of engineers and nor should we aspire for it to be.

mikestorrent 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You don't need to brand efficiency and structure-at-scale as "authoritarian"; how painfully American of you. I know it's a completely foreign concept for anyone that has grown up in America, but it's actually within the realm of human possibility for the government and the individual to be aligned and want the same thing. Typically this is evidenced by tremendous social progress, which we see in evidence with the rapidly rising standard of living in China over the last few decades.

It's easier when your government is proposing "hey, let's build all the factories the best way we can" and not "hey, let's impose illogical and continually-changing tariffs on everything and let Howard Lutnick's kids steal all the proceeds". You're right as an American to be skeptical of the government - it's not operating in your best interests unless you're one of the elite insiders. That doesn't mean it has to be that way.

superxpro12 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For all the progress, you lose me immediately with the "social credit" system. If there was really true 'progress', then you wouldn't need a one-party system that suppresses all dissent.

Only need to look to the recent changes in Hong-Kong and the obviously hostile takeover of a democratic government to see how "pure" these changes really are.

hamandcheese 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> If there was really true 'progress', then you wouldn't need a one-party system that suppresses all dissent.

This makes no sense. It is possible for a totalitarian government which is threatened by dissent and concepts like "democracy" to also work in the interest of improving overall quality of life.

resters an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Snowden's revelations showed that the same stuff exists in the US.

xtn an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are bad things in China, but there is no "social credit" system being used.

Saline9515 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes there is. Why deny it? It's pretty public. In this french documentary, which was later aired on the parliamentary tv channel, the author films his daily life with his chinese wife, who has a social credit account, and interviews officials speaking openly about it. It's 4 years old.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma6txLM_LLs

shimman 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Dude come on, the US already has a social credit system. Where do you think China got the idea of credit scores from? Try getting a good loan in the US if your credit score is under 400. You're barred from having certain jobs if you don't have a good credit score.

Get some new talking points, you're like 40 years out of date.

Saline9515 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

The difference with China is that the US credit score is limited to your banking activities.

typ 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

If that were the true secret sauce of the economic success in China, why had it not taken off before the 2000s? Like, they have been that "aligned" and "want the same thing" and "run by engineers" since the 50s, no?

wat10000 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

It kind of did. GDP per capita grew at around 6% per year from 1952-1980. It was starting from such a low base that it was still pretty low in 1980, but it was much improved. And Mao was not an engineer.

rayiner 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[delayed]

_bent a minute ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Every single privately run company is authoritarian.

mlsu 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have you met an engineer? I'd say "being an engineer" is probably the single most predictive trait for authoritarianism in my experience.

nerdsniper 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As an engineer, I do think there’s some mild but noticeable correlation in bulk. But there are other categories which would be much more predictive. And most of the correlation with engineers are actually a confounder effect from things like multigenerational socioeconomic status, or religion.

If you were to control for other variables I doubt there’d be much correlation. After filtering out engineers who belong to other categories with stronger associations to authoritarianism, you’re more likely to be left with the hyper-individual-freedom types than the hyper-authoritarian types.

lkbm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Possibly, but it's just as much a predictive trait of being libertarian, which for all its faults, is extremely anti-authoritarian.

jfengel 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

When libertarian means liberty for everyone, it's anti-authoritarian.

Too often libertarian means liberty for me and not for you. That's authoritarian.

bb88 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. --Lord Acton.

It's not really so much one's belief system as it is what happens when one gets power -- and that's hard to predict regardless of the ideology.

galangalalgol an hour ago | parent [-]

Not really. Seeing what people do when they get power is as predictable as what they do when given meth.

nerdsniper 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Eh. Maybe. But I do see people who are pretty consistent when they have power. It may be somewhat unpredictable before they get power, but somewhat more predictable once you’ve seen how they act with it.

This principle of relative consistency is baked into how I test employees for management and friends for trust, and in the past, roommates as well. Though I do acknowledge potential for growth as well, but in my older age I generally also need to see evidence of motivation to give strong benefit of the doubt wrt possible trajectory.

eli_gottlieb 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Libertarianism is just privatized authoritarianism.

SlightlyLeftPad 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except in 21st Century America, where libertarian is really just masked authoritarian. Essentially, that means “free to do whatever you want as long as it’s our way.”

jmknoll 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think what the person you're replying to is referring to is the fact that, in contrast to the US, many senior politicians in China literally have engineering backgrounds, or at least engineering degrees. Although this has actually been less true in the past 10-15 years. This article gives a bit of an overview - https://www.chinausfocus.com/2022-CPC-congress/chinese-techn...

BurningFrog an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

China hasn't done much central planning for many decades.

pear01 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That guy is so annoying his subpar analysis has become such a trope. America used to build things too. Lawyers have been part of the founding and fabric of both societies. Trying to reduce China v America to engineers vs lawyers is so reductive it's just mind blowing this keeps getting repeated.

adamweld an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I've only listened to one interview with Dan Wang, but I understood him to be particularly talking about the politicians, not the country as a whole.

I can't speak for China, I've only visited a few times, but in the US it's true that an overwhelming number of successful politicians were previously lawyers. Which is not a good thing IMO.

pear01 an hour ago | parent [-]

And that was true when we built things too. So what point are you making? If only FDR was an engineer then maybe we would have ramped up production and taken on the Axis across two oceans. But oops he was educated as a lawyer I guess we're doomed now. Like I just don't get it.

Sure Xi and some other senior leadership in China studied as an engineer. He also studied Marxism. As a part of a government delegation he studied agriculture, even bringing him to stay abroad in Iowa of all places. The world is too complicated for this type of analysis, sorry. I don't even think it is remotely the right data point to focus on or compare.

Dan Wang does the same spiel on every podcast and it is always terrible and seems predicated on credulous hosts who know little about the history of either country and certainly not enough about both who just use his lame analysis to engage in this current fad of Western self-pity. Instead of reform and asking hard questions let's just throw soft balls at Dan Wang's cheap analysis that anyone with a Wikipedia level education would know is absurd so we can keep propping up the same impoverished China v America tropes.

Why don't we demand better honestly we should be ashamed that one guy can just come up with such a dubious thesis suddenly appear everywhere and no credible debate or pushback once. The only thing Dan Wang convinces me of is the poverty of the modern intellectual environment.

shimman 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

These people are just trying to find an alternative narrative because the vast majority of the population have been rejecting neoliberalism for a good 30 years now. So they spin up the foreign enemy is better than us, so we need to deregulate more and not hold monopolies accountable.

If we broke up Google or Amazon, suddenly we're just as bad as China!

anon7725 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> America used to build things too

Indeed. “Used to” is the key observation. In the wake of WW2, the U.S. had both dynamism and the ability and will to act collectively. This combination led to rising standards of living, the space program, Silicon Valley, the internet, etc.

The U.S. economy is still relatively dynamic, but the will to collective action has completely failed.

Europe can act collectively but lacks dynamism.

Which country, today, demonstrates both traits?

pear01 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

What point do you think you're making? That's not the question. You're just repeating the same obvious geopolitical comparison everyone regurgitates these days.

The question is about whether any of that can be meaningfully attributed to some lawyer vs engineer divide. Your question doesn't answer that in the slightest and thus I have no idea why you are asking it.

cucumber3732842 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It gets repeated because we actively incentivize repeating it.

It's a popular trope that confirms the audiences bias's and when you do that the monkey brain gets rewarded by seeing the number in the top right go up.

wetpaws 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

boringg 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe what you are referring to was early 00s -- where in order to qualify to work for the bureaucracy you had to pass a very challenging and technical exam - which lead to highly capable bureaucrats. That was until Xi started cracking down and replacing meritocratic roles with political individuals.

jonstewart 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/freakonomics-what-...

thrdbndndn an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sorry, but this sounds more like a myth, or at least heavily exaggerated. Similar to how Japan often gets romanticized.

Organizing the entire chain geographically at the scale you described (inter-city) doesn't bring huge cost advantages by itself. In China labor has historically been cheap, so the transport cost between regions was never the dominant factor anyway.

Most industrial clusters in China formed organically over time just like the rest of the world. Aside from some exceptions like mining, there isn't some master plan laying out entire cities as linear supply chains to the ocean It's not SimCity.

One thing you're right about is that there is less bureaucratic friction or 'lawyers' in the way when it comes to economic development. For the former, it's because economic growth is THE metric for the government, especially at the local level, so they do whatever it takes to make it happen. For the latter, it's because… well, in China no one sues the government, period. I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Disclaimer: I'm Chinese living in China.

Braxton1980 an hour ago | parent [-]

Is the labor cheap in China or are you comparing it US salaries?

Can a person working in a Chinese tech factory for a major US company afford a reasonable place to live a reasonable distance, food, some entertainment, and have savings?

thrdbndndn 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not comparing it to US anything, I'm comparing it to other cost components like raw materials and parts, whose prices are often global.

The point is that transportation within China isn't a dominant factor in industrial cost or efficiency. So the idea that major manufacturing cities are laid out like giant assembly lines isn't nearly as important as OP suggests.

China still has many advantages over the US in manufacturing. I just don't think this is a major one, even if there's a grain of truth to it.

nerdsniper 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, there’s a decent amount of electronics manufacturing in Anhui Province which is pretty far from the well-known hub of Shenzhen. Anhui is generally more known for their mining industry.

So, to your query, maybe somewhat? But not strictly.

mschuster91 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I can't find the source but I thought I read somewhere that the major manufacturing cities in China are all geographically laid out like giant assembly lines.

... like Factorio, just in real life.

> The US can't even zone a residential neighborhood without lawyers and special interests jamming things up for decades through endless impact studies and litigation.

A lot of that is to prevent our cities from looking like China did before they haphazardly cleaned up shop before the Olympic Games. Remember all the smog alerts? Athletes being afraid the smog and pollution would impact their performance?

> How is it going to compete with a country that can lay out entire cities, organizing the value chain geographically towards the ocean?

There's a tool for that, it's called tariffs - basically, make it uncompetitive for manufacturing moving off to a country that systematically undercuts pricing even at the cost of its environment.

Unfortunately, the current administration doesn't even have the concepts of a plan on what they want to achieve with tariffs. It's mind boggling to watch.

fuzzfactor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Houston there is no zoning.

ProAm an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple as a company that does not pay taxes should at least invest in the country they are located in. *Designed in Cupertino, Taxes paid no where, profit leveraged in the US