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dec0dedab0de 2 days ago

There are nearly half a million compound phrases that aren’t in any dictionary—simply because they contain spaces. “Boiling water.” “Saturday night.” “Help me.”

I would hope that none of those examples were taking up space in a dictionary.

jakub_g 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's quite interesting that "boiling water" in many Slavic languages is actually a separate word (and not derived from "water", but from "boiling"; similar how the author mentions "ice" being used instead of "frozen water").

rjh29 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Japan is similar with 熱湯 boiling、お湯 heated、白湯 boiled once then cooled down、水 cold

michaeld123 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Added Japanese nettō alongside the Slavic examples. Thanks for the specifics

michaeld123 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This was a great detail — added Russian kipyatok and Polish wrzątok to the article as evidence that "boiling water" carries enough conceptual weight that other languages crystallized it into a single word

dec0dedab0de 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was mentioned in other comments but boiled water is steam, and frozen water is ice. We do not have separate words for freezing water or boiling water.

in the slavic languages do they have a different way to describe boiling or freezing milk, or any other liquid?

vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In Norwegian, we have "isvann" - ice water - which can both mean water implied to be cold enough to feel like it has recently melted, or specifically water with ice in it.

If you're asking for isvann at a restaurant, you'd expect to get water with ice, not just very cold water.

But if you're talking about having gone bathing in isvann one spring, it specifically means in water that - whether or not there is actually ice in it - is cold enough that it might have recently melted.

(I'm a native speaker, but had to look up the precise nuance there to be sure I wasn't just making stuff up)

Wobbles42 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We have the word slush to mean a mixture of ice and water. A single word for boiling water would occupy a similar conceptual space.

While these are not separate states of matter, they ARE special thermodynamic systems, with the particular property that they tend to remain exactly at the phase transition temperature while heat is added or removed from the system.

This is a somewhere esoteric technical distinction, but it has practical everyday consequences. It's why boiling food works so consistently as a universal cooking option.

You don't need to control the temperature of boiling water, it is an exact temperature that depends only on ambient pressure. As a consequence recipes work by only specifying time, sometimes with a single adjustment for people at higher altitudes.

This is remarkable given the wide variety of containers and heat sources used, and it is used practically by virtually every cooking tradition, even if it's reason for working is not common knowledge.

It shouldn't be surprising it'd acquire a single word as a unified concept.

robocat 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> somewhere esoteric technical distinction

When those technical distinctions are important we use specific technical terms for them (of which there are a few different ones for the phase transition - depending on discipline).

The cooking term is "rolling boil" which is a nice two word combo with a specific meaning.

dec0dedab0de 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

but what about boiling milk? or boiling oil? I get your point, I just don't understand why we would have a word for boiling water but then still need boiling-x for everything else that boils.

edit: In those other languages is it like how we use ice? where water is the default, but it could mean any frozen liquid?

georgefrowny 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I could see boiling oil being it's own word because when used as a weapon it's unlikely to actually be boiling and yet still be called "boiling oil".

nkrisc 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As you note, we have a specific word for solid water. Additionally, in colloquial speech “water” almost exclusively refers to the liquid state. Finally we have “steam” to refer to the gaseous state.

So English arguably has three unique words for the three common states of H2O.

Wobbles42 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a great question, and is tough to answer intuitively without speaking a native language that actually has such a word.

I would agree that "boiling milk" and "boiling oil" are very unlikely to get separate words, unless one of them happens to be an extremely common thing that people encounter a lot and that has special practical implications.

Milk might be a special case, in that it essentially is just water with some other stuff dissolved. It is to water as salt water is to water... but more so.

My guess would be that the single word might get pressed into service like "ice" does, but I think we'd have to find languages that include this word and survey native speakers. It could vary.

Nearly everyone encounters boiling water in everyday life, but do most people ever see other liquids boiling, even once, and especially during the historical periods that shaped our current languages? If not we might be getting into something like technical language, where daily life lines up poorly and terms and jargon get formalized.

streetfighter64 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

What do you mean by "why we would have"? Dictionaries aren't prescriptive, they're descriptive. If by "we" you mean English speakers, clearly you don't have a word for that. But if you mean some Slavic languages, they do. Likewise, English has "ice", while other languages simply call it "frozen water". Or take the example from the linked article, "at home", which some languages do have a separate word for. I don't think many languages have a distinct word for "at work" though, or "at the shop". That simply reflects that being at home is a more common and generally important concept, just like boiling water is more important in some sense than boiling milk.

Asking for the "reasons" behind a certain word existing is sort of like asking why the human body looks the way it does. Sure, scientists may have good theories why it was evolutionary advantageous to have five fingers and no tail, but in the end the only answer that's for certain is, "because it evolved that way". So the answer is, "we" have a word for boiling water because people found it useful to have such a word.

bigbadfeline 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> but boiled water is steam > We do not have separate words for freezing water or boiling water.

I don't know how it is in other languages but in English "boiled water" and "boiling water" refer to different things - boiled water may be steam or water that has underwent some boiling, e.g. for sanitation, on the other hand "boiling water" refers strictly to water that is in the process of boiling.

I can see why some languages may have a separate word for one of these concepts to avoid some of the ambiguity.

I'm not a fan of extending the language with new words unless they are compound (with or without spaces) but extending the dictionaries with more and better descriptions is a no-brainer, there's a lot missing from them.

vidarh an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I'd argue that boiled water very specifically refers to the water left ofter after boiling water, not steam. Steam is no longer water, at least not in common parlance.

Boiled water does have the extra connotation that it is presumed to be mostly sterile, which, while not hard to derive from the fact it has been boiling, is not immediately clear. After all the past tense does not tell us how recently it was boiled.

For that reason I'd argue that if one of boiling water and boiled water should be in the dictionary, it should be boiled water. Of the two, it is the term that potentially carries extra information.

georgefrowny 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, and substitution of boiled for boiling water has produced many terrible cups of tea.

It depends on the tea, but some cannot be well made with a metal pot of water that's taken a few minutes to get from the kettle to the table.

ndsipa_pomu 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Arguably it depends more on the atmospheric pressure to get boiling water as close as possible to 100°C.

The general rule of thumb is that black tea (i.e. fermented tea leaves) should be brewed at 100°C, green tea (non-fermented tea leaves) should be brewed around 80°C to avoid it being bitter and white tea (young, non-fermented tea leaves) is best at around 70°C.

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epgui 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean it’s interesting that this is generally the case with many (or even most) words across languages… But I’d wager it’s more the norm than the exception, so I don’t know if “boiling water” is that interesting of an example.

gligierko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some are better than others. Many semi-transparents could get legit coverage. And many are good fodder for word game content.

dec0dedab0de 2 days ago | parent [-]

The rest of the article did a good job explaining that. I just think those were terrible examples for the introduction. I think "shut up", "good night", and "hot dog" would have really got the point across better, but those might already be in dictionaries.

ticulatedspline 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They're clearly a bit over-zealous bout what examples they think have meaning. They cite substitution as a good test for a phrase but double down on boiling water.

> Lexicographers used a substitutability test: if you can swap synonyms freely, it’s not a lexical unit. “Cold feet” (meaning fear) can’t become “frigid feet”—so it gets an entry. But the test cuts both ways. You can say “boiling water” but not “seething water” or “raging water.” The phrase resists substitution too.

These aren't failures for substitution because "Raging" isn't' a synonym in this case. where frigid would be a reasonable.

I wonder perhaps if the author is confusing the idiom "hot water" which is in there https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hot_water and would fail the substitution test.

gligierko 2 days ago | parent [-]

I removed that sentence/claim, I see the point that "boiling" and "raging" was a bad example.

ticulatedspline 2 days ago | parent [-]

Cool, going back over them I'm actually surprised at the strength of the substitution test, thus far I haven't really encountered one that strongly goes against the test if a suitable synonym is picked.

There are a few things for which English simply doesn't have anything to substitute and those are harder to assess. boiling is one but so would "blood" in "blood pressure", obviously replacing it with another liquid has basically the same meaning eg water pressure, oil pressure but as far as I can tell there's literally no synonym for blood.

I those cases I try to use a stand in from another language to see of the substitution works. for for example "sangre" in Spanish so "sangre pressure" which doesn't seem to affect it's meaning much so I'd argue it's exclusion.

Conversely "Red tape" cannot be "roja tape" and a "caliente dog" is one trapped in a car not a food.

BobaFloutist 2 days ago | parent [-]

"Simmering H20", for all that simmering isn't quite the same as boiling, is pretty clearly more or less identical to boiling water.

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, the good examples are usually in dictionaries as headwords, the moderate examples are usually in dictionaries as phrases within the entry for one (or more) of the words that comprise them, leaving fairly weak examples actually “missing” if you want to use “missing words with spaces” as the basis for content.

michaeld123 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fair point. I just rewrote the intro w/ the naming-function argument first.

butvacuum 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

'hot dog' belongs in a thesaurus, not a dictionary. It's just a type of sausage.

vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If people assume it's "just a type of sausage" it suggests a dictionary entry is needed to explain otherwise.

It's a term referring to a small set of types of sausages served in a specific small set of ways. In some places, a hot dog can be used as a synonym for the predominant type of sausage most common in hot dogs in that place, but the term is still more commonly referring to the assembly of a wiener or frankfurter wrapped in a bread of some sort.

krisoft 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

> the term is still more commonly referring to the assembly of a wiener or frankfurter wrapped in a bread of some sort

I had that disagreement in an alpine resort once. A seller was vending some sort of sausage stuffed in a bread, i was hungry so I walked up to them with money in hand and said "A hot dog please" while pointing at the only thing they were selling. The lady was mortified by my utterance, and was not willing to accept the money until I agreed with her that it is a bratwurst and not a hot dog. :D The disagreement felt a bit academical, but given that she was holding the hot dogs hostage and money does not taste that good she won the argument.

vidarh 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

Personally think a bratwurst is borderline, in that it is "close enough" that I can see someone calling a bratwurst in a bread a hot dog, and I wouldn't react if a shop listed them as a type of hot dog on a menu.

But, yeah, some places "hot dog" also carries a connotation of potentially using lower quality sausages, so I can also totally see a bratwurst vendor taking offense...

Wobbles42 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A dictionary is an enumeration of words. A thesaurus is a mapping between existing words.

Every word in a thesaurus belongs in a dictionary.

alecbz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All words in a thesaurus would generally also be in a dictionary? The difference between a thesaurus and a dictionary is what each tells you about a word.

dec0dedab0de 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s a type of sausage, but they are definitely not synonymous. At least not in American English.

smt88 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In the US, if you ordered a hot dog and got a sausage (or vice versa), it would be very reasonable to return the item and ask for something else. They are culturally completely different, the same way Cheerios in milk is not another cold soup like gazpacho is.

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simlevesque 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The first two I kind of understand what the author means. But "help me" and "severe pain" made me think that I'm just not the right public for this text.

dec0dedab0de 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t see how boiling water could ever be a single word. Would that mean we need entries for every other liquid boiling?

i guess Saturday night could have some extra details explaining the context around our standard work week. But even that is a stretch.

Wobbles42 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

A single word for boiling water would be like the single word "slush" we have for ice in water.

It likely could apply to other liquids in the same mixed state, but would be assumed to refer to water (or solutions or colloidal mixtures primarily consisting of water) in common speech.

Water is extremely common, and has anonymously high heats of crystalization and vaporization, so it is the most common example of a mixed phase system and the only one most people encounter in everyday life.

DonHopkins 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Inuktitut / Kalaallisut (Greenlandic):

  qanik -- snow falling
  aput -- snow on the ground
  pukak -- crystalline powder snow (like salt)
  aniuk -- snow used to make water
  maujaq -- deep soft snow you sink into
  piqsirpoq (verb) -- drifting snow / blowing snow
Central Alaskan Yup’ik

  qanuk -- falling snow
  aput -- snow on the ground
  nevluk -- wet snow
  aniu -- snow for drinking water
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DonHopkins 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>"Boiling water" ... I would hope that none of those examples were taking up space in a dictionary.

Yeah, I agree! Fuck ICE!