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OtomotO 5 hours ago

Imagine the pope being a man of science a couple of hundred years back... How much better the world could be.

oersted 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t know about popes, but many prominent mathematicians, philosophers and early scientists were priests or monks: Mendel, Copernicus, Bayes, Ockham, Bolzano... It was pretty much the only way to get the kind of education, intellectual culture, time and focus required for hundreds of years (at least in Europe), until the upper-middle class widened around the enlightenment and industrial revolution.

The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale. There are always exceptions like Galileo, but it took science a long time to start answering (and contradicting) some of the key questions about our world and where we come from that religion addresses.

wolvesechoes an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> There are always exceptions like Galileo

Well, considering that Galileo basically called Pope a fool, and the punishment he received was home arrest, this affair is not really the best evidence of Church prejudice, backwardness and cruelty.

And if we agree with Feyerabend, Galileo of today would probably has as much difficulty as the original one, for the initial evidence he provided wasn't strong enough to discard knowledge of that time.

graemep 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale

Current scale? What current friction do you have in mind. I honestly cannot think of anything with the Catholic church. Lots of friction with evangelical Biblical literalists, of course, but the Catholic Church is not literalist.

> There are always exceptions like Galileo

The Galileo case is more about personalities and politics. it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power, but it is not really about his beliefs - no one else (including Copernicus) faced opposition for the same ideas.

graemep 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

Just to correct my wording. I mean "persecution" not "opposition". there was plenty of opposition and people were arguing for multiple alternatives to the Ptolemaic model at the time.

DonHopkins 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> There are always exceptions like Galileo

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

tsimionescu an hour ago | parent [-]

Comapring the assassination of a president by a pro-slaver to a scholarly and political dispute that ended up with house arrest in a villa, where he wrote and published his most important work, is a bit wild. The Church has done much, much worse things than the dispute with Galileo.

DonHopkins an hour ago | parent [-]

The bible is pro slavery.

riffraff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the catholic church has traditionally been pro-science, the contrast with science is a modern development. There's a ton of Catholic clergy who were scientists[0], many of those well known (Mersenne, Mendel, Copernicus, Venturi etc).

Even the epitome of the science-church conflict, the Galileo story, started from a scientific disagreement before the religious one[1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Mersenne

[0] https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-great-ptolemaic-sma...

wolvesechoes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How much better?

Every honest description of Catholic Church, as any institution of this size and history, needs to be very nuanced. One of such nuances is a fact that it was one of the main, and sometimes strictly main, supporters and drivers of education and scientific progress. Other such nuance is that it very often punished and persecuted attempts to bring education and scientific progress.

Both views of the Church are true. That's what nuance is.

graemep 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Other such nuance is that it very often punished and persecuted attempts to bring education and scientific progress.

Often? Very rarely, and the motive was never to stop progress - it was side effect of something else.

OtomotO 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No crusades for one populae example.

More advancements... No being opposed to actual enlightenment, because it doesn't sit well with the institution of power...

I am talking about a real man of science here of course, not some egoistic, smart person that needs to be constantly prove they are the smartest or else their frail ego will collapse... Which there are plenty of in academia and science.

simmerup 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So you'd rather have Europe be Islamic I guess, if you're opposing the crusades

tsimionescu an hour ago | parent | next [-]

How exactly is not supporting a series of wars of aggression against the Ottoman Empire equivalent to wanting Europe to be Islamic?

coryrc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Crusades resulted in Christians being nearly wiped out from the Eastern Mediterranean. Particularly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

And started(?) Jews being killed in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

OtomotO 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't care either way to be honest...

I'd prefer Satanism for sure, but I don't really care.

wolvesechoes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But why man of science would avoid starting crusades?

Moral virtue has nothing to do with being a man of science, and many men of science lacked it completely.

curtisblaine 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Exactly. We tend to forget that the crusades were an efficient way of assigning land (scarce) to the cadet branches of ruling families (abundant), or die trying.

thevillagechief 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would a Catholic man of science necessarily oppose the crusades?

somenameforme 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They often were. A lot of history has been retold more in a way to fit contemporary narrative than to maintain historical accuracy. For instance Galileo. The typical tale is something like Galileo dared claim the Earth is not the center of the universe, the Church freaked out at the violation of dogma, shunned him, and he was lucky to escape with his life. In reality the Pope was one of Galileo's biggest supporters and patrons. But they disagreed on heliocentrism vs geocentricism.

The Pope encouraged Galileo to write a book about the issue and cover both sides in neutrality. Galileo did write a book, but was rather on the Asperger's side of social behavior, and decided to frame the geocentric position (which aligned with the Pope) as idiotic, defended by an idiot - named Simplicio no less, and presented weak and easily dismantled arguments. The Pope took it as a personal insult, which it was, and the rest is history.

And notably Galileo's theory was, in general, weak. Amongst many other issues he continued to assume perfectly circular orbits which threw everything else off and required endless epicycles and the like. So his theory was still very much in the domain of philosophy rather than observable/provable science or even a clear improvement, so he was just generally acting like an antagonistic ass to a person who had supported him endlessly. And as it turns out even the Pope is quite human.

grey-area 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Cover both sides in neutrality???!!!

The geocentric position is silly and wrong. There are no two sides here.

somenameforme 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you step outside and watch the stars, and map them, you'd also come to the conclusion of a geocentric universe yourself. The nature of the sky makes it appear that everything is regularly revolving around us. And incidentally you can even create astronomical predictions based upon this assumption that are highly accurate. You end up needing to assume epicycle upon epicycle, but Galileo's theory was no better there since the same is true when you assume circular orbits.

So what made Galileo decide otherwise was not any particular flaw with geocentricism, but rather he thought that he'd discovered that the tides of the ocean were caused by the Sun. That is incorrect and also led to false predictions (like places only having one high tide), so the basis for his theory was incorrect, as were many assumptions made around it. But it was still interesting and worth debating. Had he treated 'the other side' with dignity and respect, it's entirely possible that we would have adopted a heliocentric view far faster than we ultimately did.

accidentallfact 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The thing that made him question geocentrism was that Venus quite visibly orbits the Sun.

It has always been known that the tides are caused by the Moon. The hard part is to predict the tides in detail, as they depend on the geography as well. Some of the first computers were invented to predict the tides.

somenameforme an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Galileo not only actively rejected lunar explanations for the tides, but felt that they were driven purely by the kinetic motion of the Earth - rotation about its own axis + revolution around the Sun. He dismissed the concept of invisible action at a distance -- Newton would be born in the same year that Galileo would die. You can read more about Galileo and his views on the tides here. [1] He felt that this was his most compelling argument for heliocentricism.

[1] - https://galileo.library.rice.edu/sci/observations/tides.html

wqaatwt an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Venus quite visibly orbits the Sun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_system

Was already a thing, though.

wqaatwt an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Based on data and evidence that we now have? Yes.

Back then Galileo’s theory wasn’t exactly provable and while he did get the core idea right he was still wrong on quite a few important things.

e.g. Tycho‘s model solved quite a few questions that Galileo couldn’t at the time.

e.g. Stellar parallax was a big issue that was conclusively solved until the 1800s

zdragnar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There were definitely two sides at the time in people's minds. He could have presented the geocentric position as being based on theories that were justified only by inductive reasoning, and contrasted that with his own observations and why they provide a more accurate view of the universe.

Neutral writing only means that it is not overtly prejudiced, and the weight of the evidence speaks for itself. That's definitely not what Galileo wrote. He was eventually widely considered to be right, but that didn't help him any.

josefx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> ... position is silly and wrong.

Both positions were build on top of aether, quintesence and Celestial Spheres. The result was silly and wrong no matter which one you picked.

graemep 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There were two sides on the evidence available at the time.

The Tychonic model was probably the one best supported by evidence.

its worth bearing in mind that the Copernican model is also badly wrong - the sun is not the centre of the universe, just the solar system.

grey-area 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think incomplete would be a better description; it was roughly right for our solar system and far more right than thinking everything revolved around the earth.

graemep 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think that is a reasonable take with regard to Copernicus - and however you look at it he made a huge advance on any previous model.

Geocentric models may look silly with the benefit of hindsight, but Galileo’s claim that the Copernican model was proven was entirely unwarranted at the time. The evidence did not exist until much later.

QuesnayJr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It amazes me that people think this version of events makes the Church sound better, when it makes it sound worse.

wolvesechoes an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It is not about better or worse, it is about correcting myths created later on that were intended to paint the Church as epitome of backwardness.

Galileo's affair wasn't about noble scientist going against stupid masses and oppressive institution designed to keep people in dark, while providing strong evidence for revolutionary theory, and being punished for his great genius.

But it is often presented like this.

somenameforme 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Agreed. I'd also say that I think our habit of canonizing whoever happens to be perceived as the 'good guy' in history, and demonizing the 'bad guy' tends to make history much more difficult to learn from, because the people involved go from being real humans to actors in a very artificial Hollywood style story of good vs evil.

The real story here is one that has played out endlessly in history in various contexts. And is a great example of why The Golden Rule is something valuable to abide, even if you're completely self centered. It also emphasizes that all people, even the Pope, are human - and subject to the same insecurities, pettiness, and other weaknesses as every other human. And more. It's a tale of humanity that has and will continue to repeat indefinitely.

But when you turn it into a story of good vs evil, you lose all of this and instead get a pointless attack on one institution, which is largely incidental to what happened. For instance you can see the Galileo story clearly in the tale of Billy Mitchell [1] who went from suggesting that air forces would dominate the future of warfare (back in 1919!) to getting court martialed and 'retired' for his way of trying to argue for such. His views would go on to be shown to be 100% correct in 1937, the first time a plane downed a capital naval ship. However, he died in 1936.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mitchell#

1718627440 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

How so?

usrnm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of very bad things were historically done by men of science

llbbdd 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department!" says Wernher von Braun.

somenameforme 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Even better is, 'I aim at the Stars! (but sometimes I hit London)'.

"I Aim at the Stars" was the name of a real biographical movie made about him in the 60s. It feels like that exact title had to have been chosen, at least partly, tongue in cheek.

keiferski 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Just wait until you read what people like Von Neumann thought about preemptively using nuclear weapons.

It turns out that scientific brilliance has basically zero overlap with ethical wisdom. Science is great, but it’s not a replacement for philosophy.

karel-3d 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please be more specific. Church is 2000 years old.

Lionga 4 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

Sharlin 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Impossible to know if this is a serious case of "i am very smart" or sarcastic.

karel-3d 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It will surprise you but we don't literally believe there is a face in the sky looking down.

Lionga 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It will surprise you but almost all religious people I talked to believe that.

karel-3d 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There is no face. The depictions of God the Father are relatively new (in the history of the church; it's still Renaissance). Some people used to have problem with them (Jesus can be depicted, as he was a man, but can be Father?) but then it calmed down.

If people think it's literally a face in the sky, they are probably mentally challenged.

Lionga 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it is a bit rude of you to call most religious people mentally challenged.

1718627440 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

It isn't because he already rejected your premise.

DonHopkins 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, but you literally and officially hate LGBTQ+ people, treat women as property, condone slavery, and literally hallucinate that crackers and wine are flesh and blood in spite of what your eyes, nose, taste buds, and all scientific instruments and measurements tell you.

Edit: yet you can't counter the objective fact that the Catholic Church is a hateful abusive power hungry cult full of dogmatically hallucinating lunatics, homophobes, and misogynists. Go eat your Jesus flesh and drink your Jesus blood, you cannibalistic vampire whack job.

You know as well as I do that the bible and church writings are chock full of evidence proving my point, so you can google it yourself.

And you also know that your church has such a long sordid history of raping children and protecting rapist priests than Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor's molestations and Trump's protection of pedophiles make them look like saints in comparison, and you can google that yourself too.

You don't deserve the favor of me giving you proof of something you already know to be true, because you're not arguing in good faith, you know very well you're wrong and I'm right and that all the evidence is on my side and easily found and documented, and I know very well you will reject all fact based evidence because of your bad faith.

wolvesechoes an hour ago | parent [-]

Man, you are straight out of some meme generator back from Dawkins's heyday.

> treat women as property, condone slavery

Any examples in Church writings?

DeepSeaTortoise 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Catholic Church was funding a lot of research for a long time. E.g the Elon Musk of his time, Galileo, was famously sponsored by it and when asked to contrast his theories against the established view, sperged out so hard against the people tasked with reviewing his publications, they tossed him under the carriage.

numbers_guy 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You mean during the Napoleonic wars? Science was already fully embraced by then. Or do you think the Austrians and the French were casting spells against each other instead of firing cannon?

accidentallfact 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Napoleonic wars? The Spanish used guns against the Aztecs.

>The first use of firearms as primary offensive weapons came in the 1421 Battle of Kutná Hora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm