| ▲ | mentalgear 5 hours ago |
| The EU is displaying exactly the kind of political leadership we need in this topic: pro-consumer, pro-environment, and firmly against planned obsolescence. Removable batteries were the industry standard in the early days of mobile phones, and it worked perfectly. We only lost that standard when Apple’s 'walled garden' mindset infected the rest of the industry. The amount of avoidable e-waste generated since then is unfathomable: We are talking about mountain-sized piles of discarded electronics, much of it exported to Africa and Asia. There, people (often children) burn those pieces to extract the remaining rare earths, inhaling toxic fumes in the process, while the remaining hazardous garbage is buried and left to poison the groundwater. It is an absolute moral failure that our society, and politicians beholden to Big Tech lobbyists, let this go on for so long in the name of pure profit for a few big companies at the expense of everything else. |
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| ▲ | Reason077 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Removable batteries were standard in the early days of mobile phones (and laptops) out of necessity: batteries in those days just weren’t very good. They didn’t last long, took hours to charge, and wore out relatively quickly. You’d carry a spare battery around and swap over when your first one ran out. Now days, there is much less need for that because a charge lasts much longer, and if you do run low you can fast change in 30 minutes or so. Not buying extra spare batteries for every device means less e-waste, not more! |
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| ▲ | vanviegen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I remember early cell phones (not smart phones, mind you) having weeks of standby time, or something like 20 hours of talk time. These had replaceable batteries. I don't recall people carrying spare batteries being a thing..? | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Some of my early phones had spare batteries. They most certainly did NOT have weeks of standby time or 20 hours of talk time. We are talking late 90's. Later, as phones and batteries got better, the spare batteries became unnecessary. They still degraded fast enough that there was a market for replacement batteries and they could indeed easily be replaced. We are talking things like the Nokia 3310. Even later, the need for user replaceable batteries pretty much disappeared. These days, it is entirely gone. | |
| ▲ | Reason077 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Standby times were indeed great in those days because those phones weren’t doing very much when they were idle. (Weeks may be an exaggeration, though!) You might also be misremembering talk times, unless you had a phone with an exceptionally large battery. A typical device like the Nokia 3210 had 3-4 hours talk time, which is far less than modern smartphones. | |
| ▲ | adrianN 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can in fact still buy those kinds of phones and they still have removable batteries. |
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| ▲ | KronisLV an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Now days, there is much less need for that because a charge lasts much longer, and if you do run low you can fast change in 30 minutes or so. Not buying extra spare batteries for every device means less e-waste, not more! My current iPhone's battery capacity is already starting to decrease and it was never great to begin with (needed it for work). If it was replaceable, I'd do what I used to with Android phones years ago - get a spare, if the old one is really bad or turning into a pillow, then recycle that and keep using the replacement, otherwise could use both side by side and didn't even need a separate charging bank. Lots of people will look in the direction of getting a new phone altogether, I might have to do that as well, turning the whole phone into e-waste, instead of giving it 5 more years of lifetime. | |
| ▲ | makingstuffs 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Mandating removable batteries does not _force_ you to buy a second battery. It _enables_ you to. By proxy this enables you to fix a failing battery yourself, at home. Replacing a battery instead of the whole device would create less e-waste. Just an example. Further to the above, my Nokia (32|33|51)10's battery lasted a hell of a lot longer than any iPhone I have owned. | |
| ▲ | sschueller an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not true, they may have not been as good but the phones also didn't need so much power. I never had to buy a new battery for all the nokias I owned all the way until Nokia the company died. The phone that had the worst battery was the first iphone, it wasn't water proof either yet the battery was non removable. | |
| ▲ | manuelabeledo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | A battery being replaceable has little to do with longevity or energy density. |
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| ▲ | peterfirefly 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Removable batteries were the industry standard in the early days of mobile phones, and it worked perfectly. Phones back then were bad (so accommodating replaceable batteries was easy), and batteries degraded quickly (so it was a necessity). Modern phones are smaller, need to be more water proof, stuffed to an unimaginable degree with components -- and modern batteries last a really long time. I am not so sure it's a good idea to force them to become consumer replaceable again. My iPhone SE (1st gen) ended up being pushed apart from the inside last year because the battery had swelled up. I could have had it replaced but the CPUs were a bit too weak for the modern world and the RAM too limited. A fresh new battery would not have upgraded the CPUs or the RAM. Li-ion batteries have improved since 2016 so I expect the battery in my iPhone 16e to outlast the useful life of the CPUs and RAM in it. > extract the remaining rare earths More for the gold, I believe. There are youtubers who do it semi-professionally and are remarkably transparent about how they do it. It looks like the only really toxic fumes they contend with are a tiny bit of sulphuric acid vapour from their electrolytic baths. I don't think we should ship the trash to Africa or poor parts of Asia. I don't see how replaceable batteries would have prevented my iPhone SE from becoming trash or have prevented my iPhone 16e from becoming trash in the future. Or preventing them from ending up in Africa/Asia, for that matter. Edit: had accidentally written "back" in the first line when I meant "bad". Edit 2: used the past tense by mistake ("expected the battery in my iPhone 16e"). |
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| ▲ | mytailorisrich 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Re. mobile phones it is because it allows sleeker and thinner design, and IMHO it wasn't that common to replace batteries, anyway. But, really this is a non-issue because if you need a new battery for you phone, including iphone and samsung, just get it replaced. That's not super common to need it (again) but there is no issue having it done. I had it done before. So overall I am skeptical that it will make a difference or that people will keep devices like phones longer because of this new mandate. I also doubt that the EU Parliament has data on this because many of those new regulations seem very hand-wavy to me and usually presented as obvious. |
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| ▲ | Greenpants 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People choose the path of least resistance. If you can quickly swap out an old phone battery with one you can purchase in a store, it's as easy as doing groceries. If on the other hand you need to hand off your phone to a third party for repairs, and require people to make a backup of important data, maybe factory reset just in case, get a replacement device for the time without it, tell people you'll be unavailable for a bit... It's a big enough hurdle for people to think "well, guess it's a good enough excuse to upgrade to a new model". I've heard the latter too many times in my surroundings purely due to battery life issues. | |
| ▲ | michaelt an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > IMHO it wasn't that common to replace batteries, anyway. Different phone users have very different usage patterns, in my experience. I don't use my smartphone at home (I have a PC), at work (I have a PC, and a sense of professionalism), in between (can't use a phone while driving or cycling), while exercising or while socialising (it'd defeat the purpose). I'm basically checking public transit schedules, calling taxis, making payments, and occasionally taking a photo or sending a message. My phone's still at 80% when I put it to charge while I sleep. On the other hand, a person who spends a load of time on public transit, streaming netflix the whole time? A person who listens to music all day while they work? A delivery/uber driver? A teenager without a computer of their own, who uses their phone for games and social media? And maybe they're on a budget so they have an older device and/or a smaller battery? These folks are cycling their battery twice a day. Buying portable power banks. Getting fast chargers, for an early evening battery top-up. It's these people who need to replace their batteries. | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly an hour ago | parent [-] | | > On the other hand, a person who spends a load of time on public transit, streaming netflix the whole time? A person who listens to music all day while they work? That could be me. I am amazed at the battery life of my iPhone 16e. I have no need for daily battery swaps. (Apple claims something like 21 hours of video streaming on a full charge -- that's on Apple's own streaming service but it is still many hours on Netflix and Youtube.) The "fast charger" is a tiny 20W USB-C charger that I no longer remember if I bought separately or not. It's nice and fast. Modern phones are really good at not using much power. Modern batteries are remarkably energy dense. They also degrade slower than older batteries, among other reasons because we have better (and cheaper and greener) additives now. Thank you, Dalhousie and Tesla! This is legislation that would have made a lot of sense 10-15-20 years ago. It is symbolic now (and likely to be slightly worse for the environment). |
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| ▲ | linohh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The point being made is that if batteries can be replaced without specialized tools and training, the chances of that being done could be higher, potentially leading to longer usage time and reduced e-waste. | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Consider that modern Li-ion batteries are better than older Li-ion batteries (and much better than nickel-metal-hydrides). The need for user-replaceable batteries in modern phones is on par with (or realistically a lot lower) than the need for user-replaceable screens. | |
| ▲ | mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Obviously. I understand the stated aim. My point is that things are rarely obvious. As you say, it "could". It is not obvious that it will make a difference and it might also increase the materials needed on both phones and battery. I think the EU and European countries have much bigger fish to fry, including with regards to the environment. | | |
| ▲ | vanviegen 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I think the EU and European countries have much bigger fish to fry, including with regards to the environment. Yes. And they should fry those too. |
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| ▲ | hermanzegerman 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oh yeah, because paying Apple 120$ for a 30$ part is totally the same Vs just doing it on your own with no tools. Also, your phone must be in pristine condition because otherwise you will need to "repair" tons of stuff you don't need repaired/replaced. | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Replaceable batteries mean that you can just buy two or more and just carry them around so you can charge them less often. Alternatively you can charge the battery at home while you are away with the phone and have no down time for charging. (Down time meaning you can't carry the phone around.) | | |
| ▲ | Reason077 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > ”Replaceable batteries mean that you can just buy two or more and just carry them around so you can charge them less often.” If you think this is what the EU battery regulation means, I’ve got some bad news for you. Besides, as others pointed out, encouraging people to carry around multiple batteries for their devices would just lead to more e-waste, not less. Also, carrying “naked” Li-ion batteries that are not installed in a device is prohibited on airlines - another reason why it shouldn’t be encouraged! | |
| ▲ | mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interestingly if people start to buy extra batteries as you suggest then this will completely defeat the stated purpose of having replaceable batteries! That being said, now they buy external power banks... | | |
| ▲ | hermanzegerman 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No it won't.
It's about reducing eWaste from the devices itself. Throwing away a whole device just because the battery is bad is much worse than just throwing away a worn out battery. My 9 year old ThinkPad T470 is doing well with his 3rd or 4rd battery (and a new SSD and more RAM). Also external powerbanks are pretty unpractical compared to a fresh new internal battery. | | |
| ▲ | mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is indeed a policy aimed at reducing e-waste, including resources and harmful substances from batteries. So allow to find that "yay I can buy more batteries!" is a highly ironic response. And again, all the statements that it this "obviously" better than possibly buying a new phone seem to lack any references to actual data... | | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The mistake in your argument is thinking that buying batteries results directly in e-waste. It first results in more working batteries being used over the lifetime of a device. Whether that results in more or less waste batteries in wallclock time depends on how that affects the time the device is used. If batteries are also standardized and thus device independent, the device becoming waste also doesn't mean the battery becoming waste automatically. But yeah, I can see the irony in my comment. | |
| ▲ | hermanzegerman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can't believe you're arguing in good faith. Obviously just replacing the battery is better than replacing the whole device and all it's components just because the battery is bad. The User above also said he bought two or three batteries, so he can swap them out when the battery is empty (I've also done this with my laptop) and distributing the charging cycles between the batteries, so they will all last longer. If he wasn't a power user, he wouldn't drop money on two or three batteries in the beginning, and just buy a new one when the old goes bad. |
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| ▲ | toyg 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Buying an extra battery is very different from buying an entire new phone and in no way it would offset the environmental gain of not buying an entire new phone. Please don't engage in argument for argument's sake. |
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| ▲ | SkiFire13 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But, really this is a non-issue because if you need a new battery for you phone, including iphone and samsung, just get it replaced. There's a big difference between buying a new battery for swapping it yourself and having to pay someone else to do the same for you. | |
| ▲ | bmicraft 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The Galaxy S5 was only 8.1mm including camera bump, removable battery and IP67 rating. | |
| ▲ | dvfjsdhgfv 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > IMHO it wasn't that common to replace batteries, anyway. Well, it was the most common thing to do for me - after a couple of years, you notice the battery performs worse, so you order a new one and enjoy brand new performance. Now it's hard to do even for laptops, especially some brands. |
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| ▲ | atoav 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the role we need governments to take. If you want your government to work like a corporation for some reason, why not go to a country where the govnment is weak and corporations bribe it instead? Would give you some good image how well that works. But I get it. This ideology has more to do with how much money these types can then extract from a government and if implemented fully you would have some sort of neo-feudalism where everybody needs to pay them to even exist. But that is not a real utopian vision of something that moves humanity forward (quite literally the opposite). |
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| ▲ | nephihaha 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have such mixed feelings about the EU right now. This battery initiative is definitely a good idea, but I am not onboard with their constant attempts at censorship. |
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| ▲ | peterfirefly 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem is the member states -- and the voters in the member states. The EU is only a coordination mechanism for those states. It's nothing like the federal layer of the US, or the federal layer of Germany for that matter. Many member states want censorship. Many MEPs want censorship. | |
| ▲ | progfix 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What do you mean exactly with censorship? | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Why is it punishable by law in Denmark to state that sub-Saharan African countries have average IQs around 70 and that it is hard to create functional democracies in countries with average IQs below 90? The first substatement is backed by decades of empirical evidence. The second has much newer backing but the curves actually show the cut off value to be around 95 so saying 90 is a much weaker statement than there is evidence for. Why has it recently become illegal to burn Qurans in Denmark? Considering the immoral and dangerous contents of that book, it would make a lot more sense to ban Muslim worship instead. (None of this comes from the EU. It is a specific member state that criminalizes certain speech acts on its territory out of its own volition -- and as a result of violence from Muslims.) | | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | misnome an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lol why is it always such a predictable list of gripes | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | So I am not wrong but you don't like it? | | |
| ▲ | tolerance an hour ago | parent [-] | | If I were to tell you that the examples you selected depict you as a bigot how would you react? | | |
| ▲ | gruez 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Freedom of speech is exactly for unpopular (or "bigot") opinions. You don't need freedom of speech to protect you from saying that puppies are cute. | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's exactly what I would expect from someone as tolerant as you. | | |
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| ▲ | deaux an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, quite predictable for someone to give actual examples when asked for examples. If you have other examples, go on and share them! |
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| ▲ | Hendrikto an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | We punish people for saying the truth. In Germany we fined a man for calling a fat politician fat. Which she definitely is, morbidly so. Stuff like that. | | |
| ▲ | V__ an hour ago | parent [-] | | Because insults can be fined. That is a German law though, not an EU thing. | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly an hour ago | parent [-] | | A bigger issue than the fine (which Much didn't have to pay because he won in court) is that the police thought it was a swell idea to search his house. The fine was wrong, too, and the amount (6000€!) was absurd. https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared... She should have challenged him to a duel instead. That would have been a lot more fair than mobilizing the state to fight battles that should never have been fought AND it would have put the risk where it should have been, namely on her shoulders (and stomach and thighs) instead of on his. Another insulcident happened in January 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ricarda_Lang&oldi... The German police thought it was within its rights to demand that a foreign social media platform hand over identifying information on a user that apparently called her "well-rounded" in a less polite manner. I don't think the German police should search citizen's houses or demand identifying information about people who say things that aren't nice (but true). |
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| ▲ | 243341286 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| How do you make a phone with replaceable battery to also be water resistant? |
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| ▲ | Reason077 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s pretty difficult to do that. iPhones are known to potentially lose some of their water resistance after a battery swap, as it’s hard to guarantee the replaced waterproof seal is as good as the factory one. The EU battery regulation has exemptions for IP67-rated devices which retain 83% of original battery capacity after 500 charge cycles, which most modern smartphones will qualify for. | |
| ▲ | sschueller 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is doable and with all the amazing achievements this is the thing that is too hard to get working? Also all new foldables are not water proof (yet). Your MacBook isn't water proof either yet the battery is also permanently glued in. Why? | |
| ▲ | vanviegen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Just tight fitting casing with some rubbery edges, nothing special. Just look at smart phones from ~10 years ago. | | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly an hour ago | parent [-] | | But we also want devices that are thin and lightweight. Watertight battery compartments are super easy (barely an inconvenience) if you "just" make the device thicker and heavier. |
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| ▲ | ginko an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most diving computers have replaceable batteries. Same for waterproof quartz watches. Why do you think this is impossible for mobile phones? |
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