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sschueller 8 hours ago

The global damage has been done. It took too long and it looks like it will only be partially reversed.

Constitutional changes are required for other countries to trust in the stability of the US in the future.

tfehring 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t see how constitutional changes would help. The constitution already creates separation of powers, limits on executive authority, and procedures for removing an unfit president or one who commits serious crimes. But these only matter to the extent that majorities of elected and appointed officials care, and today’s ruling notwithstanding, there’s no political will to enforce any of them. The plurality of American voters in 2024 asked for this, and unfortunately we are all now getting what they asked for and deserve.

blackcatsec 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think you're misunderstanding at least a little bit here. The Constitution created separation of powers, but what it did not do is explicitly block a particular branch from either abdicating their duty or simply delegating their power back to the executive.

It's certainly an interesting situation that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the law. But as far as everything that's working, it's realistically all within the legal framework of the Constitution. There are procedures to remove an unfit President, sure; but there's no requirement baked into the Constitution that requires those parties to act upon those procedures.

In short, it's a whole lot of short-sightedness of the Constitution combined with willing participants across multiple branches of the government.

The problems unearthed and the damage being done will take decades to fix just our internal issues, and it's very likely we will never resolve our international problems.

I don't know what the future holds for the United States, but we are certainly going to be operating from a severe handicap for quite a while.

tsimionescu 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The basic fact that needs to be contended with is that the Constitution, however brilliantly it may be crafted or repaired, is a piece of paper. It has no agency to enforce or do anything else. It's always people who have to decide to do things, maybe under inspiration from this paper or another. So whether the Constitution say "Congress must impeach a President who is doing this or that" vs "may impeach", that would have 0 practical impact.

Consider that most totalitarian states have constitutions that explicitly forbid torture, discrimination, and many other forms of government suppression of people. This does little in the face of a police state bent on suppressing the people.

tracker1 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Worth mentioning, that goes the other way too... plenty of what should be executive power was delegated to congressional authority over the years as well. And it doesn't even begin to cover activist judicial practices.

The lines have definitely blurred a lot, especially since the early 1900's. And that's just between the branches, let alone the growth of govt in general.

techblueberry 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"plenty of what should be executive power was delegated to congressional authority over the years as well"

Examples? The activist judges thing I can see, but I'm not so sure I'm concerned of a body with more singular authority (the president) delegating to a body with more democratic accountability and representation (congress), nor can I easily find any examples of it.

tracker1 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The Federal Reserve itself would be the biggest example.

bonsai_spool 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> The Federal Reserve itself would be the biggest example.

Can you expand? The Constitution gave the Executive powers that were then transferred to Congress and are now performed by the Federal Reserve?

tracker1 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Paste from another reply: The fact that these "independent" bodies even exist outside executive control in the first place. The fact that a President signed the legislation that created these bodies is an example of passing executive power to the legislative.

techblueberry 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I won't say you're alone on this one, but the position that the federal reserve should not be independent is extremely controversial.

So, if the president gave up his power to conduct monetary policy. Than good! But then that doesn't seem to correlate with Congress giving up their power so that they don't have to make unpopular votes and risk losing elections.

nyeah 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you give an example of a case where the executive branch has delegated power to the legislative or judicial branches?

tracker1 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Federal Reserve (Fed): While created by Congress to be independent, critics argue its regulatory powers and management of money are inherently executive functions that should be under Presidential control.

Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC): As an independent regulatory commission, it oversees markets, yet some proponents of a unitary executive argue it should be subject to White House control.

Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC): A regulatory agency that, along with the Fed, has been subject to executive orders aiming to tighten oversight.

Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC): An independent agency that issues regulations and recalls, often cited in discussions regarding the scope of executive authority.

nyeah 4 hours ago | parent [-]

These are good examples of congressional power as defined in the Constitution. In each case the legislative branch created new agencies and delegated some power to the executive branch. But not the reverse.

Can you give any example of the opposite? A case where the executive has delegated power to the legislative or judicial branches?

tracker1 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The fact that these "independent" bodies even exist outside executive control in the first place. The fact that a President signed the legislation that created these bodies is an example of passing executive power to the legislative.

nyeah 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Signing (or refusing to sign) legislation is a good example of the President exercising executive power. I'm not aware of any occasion when the President delegated that power to Congress (or to the Supreme Court). Can you cite something?

Maybe we have a misunderstanding. I'm not asking a kind of broad speculative question like "hypothetically, what could a hardcore monarchist say to critique our constitutional system?"

I was asking for a plain old real-world example of delegation of power from the executive branch to another branch. In the real history of the USA. Agreed on one point, though: I can't think of one either.

keernan 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>>And it doesn't even begin to cover activist judicial practices.

The Constitution created SCOTUS as a political body.

The sole role of a Supreme Court Justice is to cast votes.

The constitution places zero restrictions on how a Justice decides which way to vote. The Justice is not bound by anything in deciding how to vote.

That includes bribery or other corruption. If bribery is proven, the Justice is subject to criminal prosecution. But conviction does not remove the Justice from office. And removal by impeachment does not undo the cases decided by the corrupt votes of the Justice.

Every vote of every Justice in US history was an "activist judicial practice" in the sense that each vote was made for personal reasons of the Justice that we will never know (opinions only reflect what a Justice chose to say, which in no way means it reflects the personal reasons for the Justice's vote).

Your comment is a political statement about a political body - although you seem to incorrectly believe you are making some type of legal statement.

tracker1 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't say SCOTUS or Justices? Even then, even if they are making political decisions, there's still the illusion of something resembling reason behind those decisions... that's far from some of the activist decisions further down the line at the district level.

keernan 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I should be more careful with my terminology. By saying the constitution made SCOTUS a political body, I meant that the design of the constitution is such that SCOTUS is free to interpret the Constitution (and laws) as it sees fit.

The Constitution is designed such that it defines no rules and places no restrictions upon how Justices are to interpret the Constitution. The original design of the Constitution is that the Justices are to interpret the laws of the United States as they see fit.

There is no such thing as an "activist" Supreme Court.

The suggestion there must be an "Originalist interpretation" of the Constitution (e.g. it must be interpreted as intended by the Founding Fathers) is pure hogwash. If that were so, then by an "Originalist interpretation" the Constitution would already say so (and of course it doesn't). Nevertheless political conservative Justices actually made that part of their opinions that now impose the concept of "originalism" when interpretating the Constitution. A pretty neat magical trick by which the conservative Justices violate the philosophy of "originalism" to impose "originalism".

And as for "further down the line at the district level", there is likewise no such thing as an "activist" court - in the sense that lower courts, unlike SCOTUS, are constrained by the Constitution and statutes passed by Congress. There cannot be "activist" district courts to the extent that if they overstep their bounds, SCOTUS will be called upon to address it.

The phrase "activist court" is nothing more than a fictional invention of The Federalist Society. If there are actual politics being played in SCOTUS (this time I mean Republican vs Democrat), it is the Republicans through The Federalist Society and appointments to SCOTUS of Federalist Society Members. But now I am chasing down a rabbit hole that is best avoided.

jmull 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems rather unlikely to me that people who ignore the constitution for the sake of political advantage would start following the constitution if it were worded differently.

pseudalopex 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> There are procedures to remove an unfit President, sure; but there's no requirement baked into the Constitution that requires those parties to act upon those procedures.

This would be enforced how?

layer8 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, you can’t force people to follow the constitution in the first place, if too few agree with it.

keernan 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>>This would be enforced how

Bingo. The flaw in the constitution. The Executive holds the only enforcement mechanism in government: the FBI, military and other police forces.

Having majored in political science as an undergrad and then being a trial attorney for 40+ years, I would argue that my use of the word 'flaw' is probably misplaced. 'Flaw' implies it could (should) have been created differently.

Alas, I am unaware of ever reading a workable way to 'fix' our constitutional 'flaw'.

lhopki01 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not sure why Americans are so certain that their system of separation of powers is the right one. Most countries don't separate the executive and legislative like that. The executive is whoever can command the support of the legislative. If you think about the US system it makes no sense. An executive can just ignore the rules created by the legislative by just not enforcing it and the only means to stop that is a 2/3 majority in a body that by it's nature is not representative of the population but rather of States.

As far as I can tell the US system is designed for gridlock. Things like filibuster, lower house elections every two years, state elected upper body, electorate system are all designed to create girdlock.

While Americans as a whole are to blame for some of this they are working in a completely broken system. In tech we try not to blame a person when something goes wrong so we look at what process allowed this to happen. I think many of the US problems are explained by their underlying system which is basically a copy of the English one at the time of Independence with a monarch and a parliament. Unlike the English system though it barely evolved since then.

lordnacho 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think it's designed that way because it wasn't originally seen as one country, more as a federation.

Even by the time of the civil war, Robert E Lee decided he was Virginian ahead of his national identity.

If you have a bunch of sovereign states, then you need some state-level evening out. If everyone is a citizen of one large state, you can just go proportional.

On top of this, it was never going to be easy to gradually move from one to the other with the issue of slavery looming large, so they didn't fix it. This was still a huge issue in 1848 when a lot of Europe was grappling with how to do a constitution.

So it stayed broken and here we are.

lhopki01 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes I understand it was designed that way 250 years ago. What I don't understand is why so many Americans think that it was perfect. Why aren't Americans open to the idea that their system of "separation of powers" is fundamentally flawed. I went to an American school and separation of powers is talked about is as if it's the only possible right answer.

The US quickly realized that the loose federation wasn't going to work and centralized a lot of power. It should continue to evolve it's system.

It's worth noting that even the US doesn't think it's system is a good idea. When it imposes a new government on countries (like Iraq) it chooses a parliamentary system.

anthonypasq 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> What I don't understand is why so many Americans think that it was perfect.

because theres no example in history that has worked better. Its unclear how much of the success of the US should be attributed to the Constitution (what history would have looked like if the US had a canadian constitution for example), but what cant be argued is that the US is the most successful political body in world history and it is the oldest continuous Constitution in the world.

Under that lens it makes sense that Americans are fairly conservative about changing the constitution and why the founders are so revered. Its just fucking worked out great for us until now. Its really a miracle in many ways.

lordnacho 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> what cant be argued is that the US is the most successful political body in world history

You can very much argue about this.

If you've ever had the task of writing an essay about the nature of success, I don't think you would offer a sweeping statement like this.

lhopki01 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are plenty of examples from history and now of better governed countries. I don't know how anyone can look at the US and think it's success is because of constitution and not from being the 3rd largest country on earth with a land empire full of abundant resources that it's never given up and successfully assimilated via imported populations.

anthonypasq 4 hours ago | parent [-]

why would you muck with one of the most complicated systems humans have ever created on the off chance you fuck everything up when the current system has made you the most successful civilization in human history and has done so for 250 years.

i mean is it really hard to imagine why Americans might be wary to change things? maintaining a stable civilization is a pretty precarious undertaking.

ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> why would you muck with one of the most complicated systems humans have ever created

That system explicitly encourages mucking with it. We have elections every 2/4/6 years. It has an amendment process. Parts of it, like judicial review and qualified immunity, were just plain invented.

Per Jefferson:

“On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. They may manage it then, & what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters too of their own persons, & consequently may govern them as they please. But persons & property make the sum of the objects of government. The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished then in their natural course, with those who gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, & no longer. Every constitution then, & every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years.”

anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent [-]

so youre appealing to Jefferson to support your argument that we shouldnt revere the founders?

All im doing is explaining why Americans in the current moment are conservative about the constitution. Why are you failing to acknowledge this? Im not making a value judgement im explaining why people think this way.

ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm noting that the Founders weren't deluded or egotistical enough to think themselves as perfect as American conservatives treat them today. We should not revere them, and I think they'd agree with that.

oblio 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Heh, the separation isn't even the worst part.

The fact that the US Constitution is basically more sacred that the Bible when you talk to the average American is even weirder. The Founding Fathers are the Original Gods (Gangsters?).

lhopki01 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The issues are intertwined. The Constitution is sacred so therefor the system of government it's setup is sacred and so on.

RupertSalt 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A sola scriptura republic

anthonypasq 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

responded the same to the person you responsed to but perhaps this is a decent explanation.

because theres no example in history that has worked better. Its unclear how much of the success of the US should be attributed to the Constitution (what history would have looked like if the US had a canadian constitution for example), but what cant be argued is that the US is the most successful political body in world history and it is the old continuous Constitution in the world.

Under that lense it makes sense that Americans are fairly conservative about changing the constitution and why the founders are so revered. Its just fucking worked out great for us until now. Its really a miracle in many ways.

ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> what cant be argued is that the US is the most successful political body in world history and it is the old continuous Constitution in the world

That’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_San_Marino.

anthonypasq 4 hours ago | parent [-]

sigh... ty for the irrelevant and useless pedantry. inescapable on this forum

ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s a factually incorrect claim.

The other bit, “the most successful political body in world history”, isn’t even a falsifiable claim; it’s pure opinion.

The Pope might disagree on it, for example.

anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent [-]

i will note your continued pedantry and wish you a nice day

tracker1 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The difference is in cases where the parliament chooses the executive is it leads to it's own collusion and corruption in terms of excessively growing govt... not that it's barely held the US from doing so. The point is to be in an adversarial context in order to resist overreach of govt.

For better or worse, our system today isn't quite what it was originally designed as... The Senate was originally selected by the state govts, not direct election... the Vice President was originally the runner-up, not a paired ticket and generally hamstrung as a result. The VP didn't originally participate in the Senate either, that came after WWII.

The good part about the constitution is there is a reasonable set of ground rules for changing said constitution with a minimum that should clearly represent the will of the majority of the population. (corrupt politicians not-withstanding)

lhopki01 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Almost every country ranked for having the least corruption is a parliamentary system. Actually proportional parliamentary seem to be even better in terms of little corruption.

The reasonable set of ground rules seem to favor states over the will of the majority of the population. It is possible to change the constitution with states representing only 25% of the population. And remember you'd only need a majority in each of those states so could be way less of the population.

Overall the system seems flawed in that instead of having clearly delegated areas of responsibility to states and then doing the federal system as based on the population of the whole country it muddled areas and then made a federal system that couldn't respond to the population.

tracker1 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I include legislative anti-liberties as corruption. If you can be jailed for reposting a meme on twitter, for example... If you post a picture of your dog with a paw up, and make a nazi joke about it and risk winding up in prison as a more specific example.

There are clearly delegated responsibilities to the states... the 10th amendment specifies as much... that the govt has grown beyond this wouldn't have been stopped by a parliament any more than the current system.

lhopki01 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I can understand your point in terms of negative liberty but I tend to hold positive liberty to be just as important. It is not sufficient to me that there is no law preventing me from having healthcare, I expect that the government should ensure I have the ability to have a healthy life.

The 10th amendment isn't clear. Too many areas are dual responsibility. That's never going to be clear.

tracker1 3 hours ago | parent [-]

So if there is nobody willing to be a doctor for the pay rate the govt is offering, what happens? Does your "right" to healthcare extend to literal slavery?

I'm being a bit hyperbolic only to make the point... I don't think anyone's "rights" should include forced labor of anyone else. So certain things, even food cannot be a right... I would think that public lands and a right to hunt/gather or even some level cooperative gardening/farming might be okay as a middle ground though.

AnthonyMouse 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> As far as I can tell the US system is designed for gridlock.

At the federal level the US system was designed for gridlock on purpose, with the premise that something shouldn't be federal policy without widespread consensus, and without that consensus it should be left to the states.

The problem is really that many of the gridlock-inducing measures have been thwarted, e.g. delegation of rulemaking power from Congress to the executive and direct election of Senators to prevent state-representing Senators from voting down federal overreach. But those things weren't just there to induce gridlock, they were also the accountability measures, so without them you put corruption on rails and here we are.

lhopki01 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Any system designed for gridlock will lead to increasing anger and pressure that will eventually break out in bad ways. If people see the results of their own actions then they are not going to end up so extreme.

I'm not sure why Americans think that the creation of agencies is the problem when other well governed countries do the same. The idea that a legislative body could possible create appropriate regulation in a modern complex world is crazy. That's what a parliamentary system solves. It keeps the executive accountable to the legislative at all times.

AnthonyMouse 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Any system designed for gridlock will lead to increasing anger and pressure that will eventually break out in bad ways.

Only if there is no other way to address the issues, but the system provides one. You adopt the policy at the state level instead.

> I'm not sure why Americans think that the creation of agencies is the problem when other well governed countries do the same.

The US at the federal level is larger than nearly all other countries. North Carolina has more people and a higher GDP than Sweden. California has almost as many people as Canada and a higher GDP. The US has the same order of magnitude in size and population as the whole EU.

Bureaucracies have diseconomies of scale. There is a point past which "larger" is no longer getting you significantly better amortization of fixed costs and is instead just increasing communication costs, adding layers of middle management, exacerbating the principal-agent problem and making you a more attractive target for corruption.

The US federal government is well past the optimal size for solving most problems; probably even California is too big.

lhopki01 4 hours ago | parent [-]

>Bureaucracies have diseconomies of scale. There is a point past which "larger" is no longer getting you significantly better amortization of fixed costs and is instead just increasing communication costs, adding layers of middle management, exacerbating the principal-agent problem and making you a more attractive target for corruption.

You write this as a self evident truth but it isn't. In what way is having a single trucking standard for the entire country less efficient than having 50? In what way is having a single currency across the entire country less efficient than having 50? In what way is having a single standard for approval of medication less efficient than having 50?

The US's advantage is precisely because of it's scale. It provides a massive addressable market allowing companies to scale rapidly.

AnthonyMouse 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> In what way is having a single trucking standard for the entire country less efficient than having 50? In what way is having a single currency across the entire country less efficient than having 50?

This is why issuing currency and interstate commerce (meaning actually crossing state lines, not the modern interpretation of anything that affects commerce anywhere) are among the explicitly enumerated powers of the federal government.

> In what way is having a single standard for approval of medication less efficient than having 50?

It allows large states to set their own standards and smaller states to choose which of the standards to apply, e.g. Arizona says you can sell anything in Arizona that you can sell in Texas, without requiring everyone to agree on how the trade offs should be made, e.g. California can have more stringent rules than Texas. Meanwhile people in Texas could still choose not to consume anything if it hasn't been approved in California and people in California could go to Arizona to get things they think California is being too reserved by prohibiting.

> The US's advantage is precisely because of it's scale. It provides a massive addressable market allowing companies to scale rapidly.

Which in itself has the tendency to promote megacorps and market consolidation over competitive markets with larger numbers of smaller companies, and consolidated markets themselves have significant inefficiencies and costs.

Meanwhile why would that require the federal government to insert itself into local education policy or be issuing subsidies to oil companies etc.?

bregma 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The structure of British government during the Hanoverian times was little different from what the UK has today. The monarch was effectively a powerless figurehead and executive decisions were made mostly by faceless very wealthy individuals in back rooms with the public face carried by a small set of charismatic figures who usually sat in parliament.

The US system was designed as a grand experiment. It made a certain amount of sense at the time: the country as a vast plantation steered by a benevolent master with policy set by wealthy landowners and businessmen who knew what was best for everyone. It was a system already in place in the Americas for generations and most national arguments could be hashed out at the club over some fine imported brandy or, for people like Franklin, some imported tea.

As far as it goes, there have been worse set-ups.

lhopki01 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It's quite different. The House of Lords was much more powerful well into the 19th century. The monarch was hardly a powerless figure in those times. The Bill of Rights 1689 probably shifted the power more towards Parliament than before but the monarch was still very powerful. The UK system continues to evolve with notable precedents being set very recently like requiring a consultation of Parliament before embarking on military action and the limitation of prorogation powers.

The setup isn't the problem. The refusal to evolve is the problem.

I'd argue that it wasn't really the system in place. The system in place was one of states governing themselves. Before independence the states didn't really deal much with each other.

mjd 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The filibuster isn't part of the system; it's not even part of the law. It's just part of the rules that the Senate chose for their own internal procedures.

lhopki01 5 hours ago | parent [-]

It's just another thing that means people don't face the consequences of their own actions. If the extremeness of the elected party is blocked by the filibuster then people are angry at things not changing and so go even more extreme.

A similar problem in the United States is the excessive amount of law making by the Judiciary. In most countries the Judicary doesn't' make law it just tells Parliament that they need to change the law. This again means the consequences of who you voted for are not faced.

The pressure builds till there's a breaking point.

epolanski 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have a proper mature parliamentary democracy made of multiple parties, not just two, and a prime minister that is always one vote away from resigning.

Slower democracy, sure, but fits advanced economies that need consistent small refactors and never full rewrites every 4 years.

Nition 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd like to see a change in voting system to make voting for smaller political parties more viable. My country did this in 1993[1] so I've seen to some extent that it works. A lot of other issues in the US seem downstream from that top-level issue.

But sometimes I think about the fact that you guys don't even have the metric system yet...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_New_Zealand_electoral_ref...

simonh 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problems are a product of the constitutional system. I think the main problem is the elected king presidential system nonsense. Parliamentary democracy is the way to go.

ceejayoz 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I don’t see how constitutional changes would help.

At the very least, we need a clarification on presidential immunity.

cael450 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The American constitution is riddled with problems that many later democracies managed to fix. In general, the founding fathers envisioned a system where amendments were far more common and they didn't realize they made the bar too high. And that doesn't even touch on the electoral college, first-past-the-post voting, vague descriptions of the role of the supreme court, and no method for no confidence votes. Of course, it would be next to impossible to fix these in America because it would require a significant rewrite of the constitution.

The only way this will change is if the rest of the world leaves America behind and the quality of life here becomes so bad that radical change becomes possible.

But you are right that Trump won the popular vote in 2024, so you can't blame that on the system. But a functioning democracy would have more constraints on him. Our legislative branch has been dead in the water for 20 years at this point.

lapcat 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The majority of American voters in 2024 asked for this

It was 49.8%, which is not quite a majority.

It's also worth noting that Kamala Harris received precisely 0 votes in the 2024 Democratic primaries.

[EDIT:] I see that the parent comment has now changed "majority" to "plurality."

If I could make one Constitutional amendment, it would be this: publicly finance all election campaigns, and make private contributions illegal bribery, punished by imprisonment of both the candidate and briber.

tfehring 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fixed the “majority” claim.

I think a competent opposition party would be great for the US. But regardless of the candidate, US voters had three clear choices in the 2024 Presidential election: (1) I support what Trump is going to do, (2) I am fine with what Trump is going to do (abstain/third-party), (3) Kamala Harris. I think it’s extremely clear 3 was the best choice, but it was the least popular of the three.

AnimalMuppet 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Option 4: I am not fine with what Trump is going to do, but I am also not fine with what Harris is going to do. And, since Harris said that she wouldn't do anything different than Biden, that could amount to "I am not fine with what Biden has been doing the last four years".

Was that less bad than what Trump has done in one year? Yes. But Trump in his first term was less bad than this, and recency bias means that what we didn't like about Biden was more prominent in our minds.

But my option 4 looks just like your option 2 in terms of how people voted. I'm just saying that the motive may have been different.

Sabinus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Remind me why Trump 1 was better than Biden?

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh man that hits the biggest nerve in me. Never again should we allow primaries to be skipped. I don't care if the incumbent is the most popular candidate in history - running a primary makes sure the best candidates will be picked and refusing to run an election and then having the gall to suddenly anoint a chosen candidate was an absolutely disastrous decision.

Democracy is a healthy process - I don't know why we buy the stupid line of "we need party unity" when what we need is an efficient expression of the voters will and having that expression is what best forms unity. There are some old Hillary quotes that make me absolutely rabid.

jajuuka 7 hours ago | parent [-]

To be fair there were primaries, but the DNC only pushed Biden's candidacy. So there really wasn't any other candidates on all the ballots except uncommitted. When he dropped out in July their simply isn't enough time to run a functional primary and campaign for the vote in November. We can't really delay the election to have a primary. The delegates of the DNC do get to vote on who they want and by the time Kamala stepped in she did get the most votes.

It's really a problem of money though. The DNC really are the king makers when it comes to candidates. That and PAC money are the requirements to get a nomination. At least when it comes to presidency. Smaller elections you get more freedom to have a successful without such things. The whole system needs an overhaul unfortunately and I don't see any candidate from any party looking to fix that any time soon.

jakubmazanec 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> When he dropped out in July their simply isn't enough time to run a functional primary and campaign for the vote in November.

That's only problem in the USA. Other western democracies are able to have snap elections done in two months.

jajuuka 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Other western democracies are much smaller or have much more uniform systems than the US as well. Not to say it's impossible, but it would take reworking the system. Right now the only elections that are highly publicized and known about are the ones every 4 years for president. Next is every two years election for congress and that's a big drop off in participation. Things like primaries you really have to go out of your way to know about them happening and when and where.

The first couple states really end up determining who usually wins the nomination and financial backing. It takes time to move a candidate between places and set up multiple events and fundraisers. Now in state and city elections the US can do those quickly as well. Smaller area to cover and campaign and the community stays informed. It doesn't help that national elections involve institutions like the electoral college instead of a popular vote. That's a different problem though.

tokai 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or less, in Denmark the average time from election announcement to voting is 20 days.

ReptileMan 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My first thought when I read the Biden resignation letter was - Harris endorsement is brilliant fuck you to the Dem insiders that are ousting him. I am still lowkey convinced that he voted for Trump out of pure spite.

fuzzfactor 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Biden's hail mary would have been to pick Haley as his running mate, who already had 19% of the Republicans.

tayo42 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fix some of the ambiguities that allowed power to be concentrated in the executive branch. Automatically start elected officials so things like avoiding swearing in don't happen. Limit the power of these executive orders. Introduce recall votes. Switch to public funding for all elections.

Theres plenty we can do. That's off the top if my head. I'm sure if smart people sat down to think about it there are lots of practical and clever ideas.

The majority didn't ask for this. 49% of voters did.

ReptileMan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Or hear me out - the congress should start doing their job. The main problem is the congress has been MIA for decades and outsources their power to the executive via regulatory bodies. And probably a good idea for SCOTUS to return some power to the states. There is too much power concentrated in washington, the congress refuses to yield it and the result is imperial presidency. Which is exalting when the president is from your faction and depressing when it is not.

lordnacho 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Congress is largely the wrong people though. What sane person would build a system where getting elected requires you to be rich? Where a primary system ensures everyone elected is not roughly in the center of opinions?

tayo42 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, I think recall votes, term limits, higher pay, fixing election funding would help with that.

We need changes that address the kind of people that are running for these spots and winning then go on to do a bad job. Congress isn't incentived to be effective.

cyberax 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The main problem is that Congress is not competitive. If you live somewhere outside of a few remaining swing areas, you can just skip voting entirely.

We need to do something to fix this: gerrymandering ban, increase the number of Reps, add more states for more Senate seats, etc.

anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent [-]

sorry, but that is not it, unless you think politicians are fungible within parties. The problem is that there is no real feedback mechanism between a what a congress person votes for and their electibility (within or across parties) because of money in politics.

how is it possible that congress has consistent single digit approval ratings and they vote for things 90% of their constituents disagree with and still get elected? This is the core problem of American politics. Politicians are beholden to donors not voters.

lesuorac 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The problem is that there is no real feedback mechanism between a what a congress person votes for and their electibility

You would describe this as being different from competitive?

I doubt any amount of money would matter if we had 1 representative per 30k people as written in the constitution, NY State is about 20 M people so you'd need to bribe ~300 of the ~600 representatives in order to get your way (and also do that for every other state).

anthonypasq 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

yes, is there any evidence purple districts represent their constituents better? whats the different between being primaried in a 90% red district and running against someone of a different party in a swing district?

cyberax 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The local options for uncompetitive districts? They are fungible, except maybe minor differences on some pet issues.

They don't have to care about actually representing anyone. They can skip town halls, ignore requests, etc. Primaries are a very weak form of influence.

If you want numbers, reps in competitive districts hold more town hall meetings. And they also hold more personal staff (limited back in 1975) in their home states. This is kinda a no-brainer. If you have to care about re-elections, you'll try to help your local consituents.

mrtesthah 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>>Switch to public funding for all elections.

>Or hear me out - the congress should start doing their job.

Well, we make them do their job by holding them accountable to the people rather than a billionaire donor class. Citizens United is at the root of all this.

ReptileMan 7 hours ago | parent [-]

they are not accountable to anyone right now because they flat out refuse to pass any legislation.

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The majority of American voters can be as dumb as they want - the two big failures here are the legislature and the judiciary. The judiciary let an obviously illegal thing sit for far too long while the legislature is too partisan to actually take actions against the administration (except in the case of the Epstein files which has been surprisingly admirable and a rare ray of light in the last year).

If the majority of American voters elect snoopy the dog snoopy can do all of the things snoopy wants to do within the bounds of the law. Snoopy can use his bully pulpit to fight against dog restrictions in restaurants and grant pardons to previous offenders. Snoopy can ensure efficient spending of money on public water fountains accessible to canines... but if snoopy starts issuing open hand-outs to the red baron (snoopy in a moustache) that's when the other branches of government are supposed to step in - we aren't supposed to need to wait four years for the next election to stop open corruption (especially since corruption is really good at funding more corruption so there's a vicious cycle that can begin if you let it fester @see the recent FBI raid on GA election offices).

andsoitis 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are you arguing voters in a democracy are not even a little responsible for the outcomes of their vote?

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Oh, they're absolutely responsible and will suffer a fair amount of consequences for their votes. But the legislature should have stopped the bleeding a long time ago.

doka_smoka 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

maxwell 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

hackyhacky 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If snoopy starts issuing open hand-outs to the red baron (snoopy in a moustache)

You mean like how President Trump just gave 10 billion USD of taxpayer money to a board operated by Private Citizen Trump?

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/gaza/trump-board-of-peace-firs...

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean like that and dozens of other excellent examples that should have caused the legislature to remove him from office. Trump coin alone (including all the shady World Liberty Financial funding) should have been worth the boot and that happened on like day two of the administration.

mrguyorama 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The legislature is made up of representatives voted in.

Republicans who wanted to prevent Trump from doing this kind of shit were voted out.

This is what the voters want.

hackyhacky 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes and no. It's a mistake to look at political representation as a pure expression of voters' will.

Gerrymandering keeps extreme politicians in office. Partisanship gets people to vote against their own interests. Media gravitates toward spectacle rather than substance, to the benefit of those that know how to use that; and social media in particular entrenches deeper into preconceived biases.

In short, manipulating voters is a profitable business. Electoral results are the output of that business, and voters are just the instrument.

mindslight 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Necessary changes, off the top of my head:

1. Ranked Pairs voting for national elections, including eliminating the electoral college. Break this two-party duopoly of bad-cop worse-cop.

2. Enshrining the concept of independent executive agencies, with scope created by Congress, with agency heads chosen by the same national elections. (repudiation of "Unitary Executive Theory", and a general partitioning of the executive power which is now being autocratically abused)

3. Repudiation of Citizens United and this whole nonsense that natural rights apply to government-created artificial legal entities (also goes to having a US equivalent of the GDPR to reign in the digital surveillance industry's parallel government)

4. State national guards are under sole exclusive authority of state governors while operating on American soil (repudiation of the so-called "Insurrection Act"). This could be done by Congress but at this point it needs to be in large print to avoid being sidestepped by illegal orders.

5. Drastically increase the number of senators. Maybe 6 or 8 from each state? We need to eliminate this dynamic where many states hate their specific moribund senators, yet keep voting them in to avoid losing the "experienced" person.

6. Recall elections by the People, for all executive offices, members of Congress, and Supreme Court justices. (I don't know the best way to square courts carrying out the "rule of law" rather than succumbing to "rule of the fickle mob", but right now we've got the worst of both worlds)

unethical_ban 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Statutorily reduce the power of a rogue president by reinforcing the right of the administrative state to exist with some independence for the rank and file. Reduce conviction threshold in the Senate to 60. Eliminate the electoral college to guarantee the winner of a popular vote is the winner.

Importantly, prosecute every member of the Trump administration for their blatant respective crimes.

I agree with you that the Republican party has failed the country by allowing this to happen. But I think we can still do better.

More "big picture" ideas would be to fundamentally alter the House and Senate, and implement score/ranked voting to allow a multiparty system.

mongol 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Constitutional changes are required for other countries to trust in the stability of the US in the future.

For sure. Question is what would be enough to regain trust? I don't really see it happening

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Genuinely, I think the US is pretty doomed if the Trump family and administration cronies aren't stripped of their wealth, tarred and feathered. If it is known that being president is a great way to make a bunch of money through corruption and there are no consequences then we'll be in the same situation as the Roman Republic in the waning days before Caesar. Caesar himself was funded by Crassus to make sure Crassus wealth making tactics stayed legal and grant him a big payout in the form of a rich governorship. Towards the end of the republic that sort of quid pro quo was standard operating procedure and if it happens and goes unpunished - if those benefiting see any positive RoI - then it'll just happen more and more.

rjrjrjrj 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dunno. More than half the country was either enthusiastically in favor of electing a convicted criminal pathological liar or too apathetic to do anything about it. How do you fix that?

k1ko 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds like an enormous indictment of the Democrat party. Public views of their policies was so bad that the alternative you outlined was preferred.

rjrjrjrj an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, America chose adjudicated rape, tax fraud, conspiracy theories, serial dishonesty, and a track record of being the worst President in living memory over Kamala’s “policies” of being non-white and a woman.

That’s the problem.

anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

yes thats right, the rise of Hitler was probably justified because the Jews were admittedly very annoying...

I mean if I had to choose between being ok with Jews or supporting Hitler, i can understand why people would pick Hitler. The election of Hitler was really quite an indictment of the Jews.

(I am not saying Trump is Hitler)

toomuchtodo 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can't change or fix people who have their vote. Mental models are rigid, and people are, broadly speaking, emotional and irrational. They vote vibes, not facts. So, "what do?" as the kids would say. You keep folks who want to come to the US who might be vulnerable once in the US out of the US to protect them (which this administration is assisting with through their anti immigration efforts). The people who want to leave [1]? You help them leave for developed countries, which there are many. The people who will remain and should be protected? You protect them if you have the resources or network to do so. The global economy continues to reconfigure to decouple from the US [2]. Time marches on. These are harm reduction and risk mitigation mechanisms, perfect is not possible nor the target.

These are system problems. Think in systems. No different than having an abusive family you have to decouple from for self preservation, just at geopolitical scale. Capital, people, information are all mobile, and can relocate as needed. There is nothing on US soil that cannot be replaced or replicated elsewhere on the globe (besides perhaps national parks and other similar public goods, which can hopefully be protected until improved governance emerges). Please, challenge me on this if you think it's wrong, I've put much thought into it to provide guidance to others.

The only thing we had of value was trust (value of US treasuries and the dollar) in the rule of law and stability, and we burned it up. Humans are tricky. Get as far away as you can from harmful humans.

[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/697382/record-numbers-younger-w... ("In 2025, 40% of women aged 15 to 44 say they would move abroad permanently if they had the opportunity. The current figure is four times higher than the 10% who shared this desire in 2014, when it was generally in line with other age and gender groups.")

[2] Global Trade Is Leaving the US Behind - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2026-02-12/on-tra... | https://archive.today/dsI9R - February 12th, 2026

Jensson 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

> You can't change or fix people who have their vote. Mental models are rigid, and people are, broadly speaking, emotional and irrational. They vote vibes, not facts. So, "what do?" as the kids would say.

So don't present a candidate with shit vibes that people wont vote for? Democrats lost this election, if they got as many votes as they usually do they would have won.

Democrats in power would rather lose the election than break down their own power structure, that is the main reason Trump could get re-elected.

fuzzfactor 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's going to take a Constitutional Convention just for the states in North America to be able to regain their trust in Washington any time soon.

States' Rights have been slaughtered by these false patriots.

ycsux 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For sure, massive damage has been done to Brand USA. Remember the 'Allegory of Good and Bad Government" in the Siena public palazzo since the 14th Century? Everyone knows USA is just a bunch of grifters

kojacklives 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

mamonster 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>In 2021 the US had the its best opportunity to date to assemble a military tribunal to try and then execute a President

It's completely foreign to the US or the Anglo-Saxon world in general. The military as the final guarantor of state security is a continental European thing (and removing this has been the goal of many army reforms in Europe since the end of WW2).

munk-a 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The modern anglo-saxon world has been pretty limited in this respect - but Charles I of England is an excellent example of pretty much just this playing out and being solved with a national razor.

mamonster 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree with you - I should've caveated that the Anglo-Saxon aversion to military coups comes precisely from Cromwell IMO.

kojacklives 7 hours ago | parent [-]

This sounds similar to holding up Ghandi as proof that violent rebellion is not necessary. Treating these incidents as proof about the current world presumes people in power lack the agency to examine history like the rest of us.

kojacklives 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a nonsensical reform. Every check and balance is itself a risk, nonetheless one can not build a safe Republic by removing them.

The US thinks it is the check for Europe but this offers no check for the leader of a superpower such as the US.

(It's apparently a flaggable offense to believe a legitimate republic is measured by making sense even if making sense goes against Anglo Saxon sensibilities since Cromwell.. I guess we can call time of death on the city on a hill.)

mamonster 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Well if you want the possibility of military tribunals you have to accept the risks of something like the 1962 Algiers coup, the 27 May revolution or (if you want a more recent example) the Wagner rebellion. I'm not certain that would be palatable to Americans but I'm not American myself so wouldn't know.

kojacklives 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I grew up in an America that spent a lot to explain what it was willing to do for a Republic and ideals. The people who will quietly give a traitor an illegal 3rd term to avoid a more upsetting crises that could either save the Republic or just make it clearer it is over are apparently what the US actually is.

jjtwixman 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

seydor 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I disagree. Despite all the talk and grand announcements of independence, most of the world wants globalization and worked for more of it, but maybe without the US (openings to china/india/LatAm). Now it will most likely be WITH the US. While the US may feel that globalization has been bad for itself (it hasn't - just look at the spectacular US economy) , the rest of the developed world is not in a position to reverse it (due to demographics mostly) and will be happy to jump back in.

harimau777 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think that a lot of people would disagree that the economy is spectacular. People can't even afford to buy a home in a decent part of the country.

SV_BubbleTime 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>People can't even afford to buy a home in a decent part of the country.

Is that because of scarcity? We’re manipulation? Or something else?

jezzamon 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Presumably congress could recreate the same tariffs, if they wanted.

zanderwohl 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The economy is not spectacular by any means. It's about average on paper, and without AI growth (which will surely slow down like the .com crash) and increased healthcare spending, it's been mildly slumping.

contagiousflow 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm guessing you're American?

jen729w 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Constitutional changes

Y'all have proven how worthless that piece of paper is.

pavlov 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are many countries that have functioning constitutions that are regularly revised.

It’s not impossible for the USA to get there one day.

stevenwoo 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We still haven't fixed things caused by putting chattel slavery into the Constitution almost 150 years after a civil war.

pavlov 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, that's why I wrote "not impossible" rather than "likely"...

These things can be fixed even though it's difficult. Sometimes the pressure just boils over. Americans are a lot more defeatist about their politics than in many other democratic countries.

ceejayoz 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hell, we deliberately left it in.

> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

bdangubic 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

it is impossible and it is great that it is impossible because you need one party to basically run everything at the federal level and vast majority at the state level which means that any changes to the constitution would be heavily politically motivated to one side of the isle.

pavlov 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Looking at the results, it's obviously not great that there's no reasonable process to update the constitution. It's the most dysfunctional democracy in the West.

Change that seems inevitable in retrospect often feels like a surprise in the moment. France its on its fifth republic. A second American republic is not impossible.

fuzzfactor 6 hours ago | parent [-]

>there's no reasonable process to update the constitution.

Au contraire, a Constitutional Convention of the states to define the way they can all agree to be united.

Just like the first time.

There weren't that many states back then anyway.

bdangubic 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You talking theoretically or in practice. Theoretically we could have Constitutional Convention of the states to define the way they can "all" agree to be united (just like the first time). In practice there is a higher chance of me marrying Beyonce

zeroonetwothree 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn’t this decision exactly prove the opposite?

maxwell 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What piece of paper is worth more to you?

jen729w 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The difference with many other countries -- I'm Australian -- is that we don't constantly bang on about how glorious our constitution is and how it's the be-all end-all. We just get on with it.

And I wouldn't mind if the American constitution did provide all of these tremendous benefits that everyone bangs on about all the time. That'd be great! But it turns out nobody's really tested that, until now.

And you get an F, my friend. Hard fail.

maxwell 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I mean, it was the world's first codified constitution, written after the world's first successful war of independence.

Which later constitutions do you grade higher? Who has stronger rights?

Freedom2 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This is moving the goalposts, but I'll entertain this. What does the time / date of the original document have to do with the fact that it's rarely updated and that there's seemingly a constitutional crisis every week for the last year and a bit? No one is arguing here about the strength of rights or the 'grade' of the constitution.

unethical_ban 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The problem with the US Constitution and its religious status in the US is that it contains both fundamental rights and protections for citizens, AND the mundane details of implementing the government.

If you put 500 mock Constitutional conventions together at universities and cities across the country, I would polymarket my 401k that none of them would come up with the same structure we have today in the US. Many republics founded since 1791 have far better democratic structures than the US does. I call the US a semi-democracy because of our Senate, Electoral college, gerrymandered House districts and first-past-the-post voting.

Edit: I got "danged" so here is my response to the person below -

Consider the bill of rights and federal limits separately from the structure of government.

I believe France and Australia have better "democratic infrastructure" and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.

maxwell 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Which later republics, specifically? Who has stronger rights?

unethical_ban an hour ago | parent [-]

France and Australia pop to mind.

I'm not talking about legally protected rights, I'm talking about the "democratic infrastructure". Voting systems, legislative assembly design, power balance, and so on.

parineum 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Constitutional changes are required for other countries to trust in the stability of the US in the future.

I don't know about trust but the constitution isn't what enabled this type of behavior, it's the legislature. They've been abdicating their duties to executive controlled bodies (FCC, FDA, FTC, EPA, etc.) and allowing the president to rule through executive action unchallenged. They could have stopped these tariffs on day one. SCOTUS isn't supposed to be reactionary, congress is.

The constitution has all the mechanisms in place to control the president, they just aren't being used by the legislature.

It's a tricky problem that has a number of proposed solutions. I'm not going to act like it's a silver bullet but I think open primaries in federal elections would go a _long_ way towards normalizing (in the scientific meaning) the legislature and allowing people who want to do the job, rather than grandstand, into the offices.

Ajedi32 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the root of the problem is our two party system and the polarization of our culture. Congress and the president often act as a single partisan unit, not a collection of independent thinkers with their own ideas about how the country should be run. That makes it very hard for congress to serve as an effective check on presidential powers.

jajuuka 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's really the achilles heel of a checks and balances system. Should an ideology gain control of all of them then the system doesn't work and it immediately sinks into authoritarianism. The Supreme Court acting on this just unfortunately gives the illusion of things working when it's a game of blitzkrieg. Make an obvious illegal action and get as much done as possible then when you are eventually checked, move on to the next thing. Just keep pushing in different directions until you cover the board.

root_axis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good luck ratifying any constitutional amendments that are in any way a response to MAGA.

8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
SilverElfin 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is probably true. Even before this ruling Trump and Bessent and Lutnick have spoken about how they would react to such a ruling. And it looks like they’re going to do the same thing Democrats do when they don’t like a SCOTUS ruling, and try to implement the same tariffs in a slightly different way to effectively ignore the ruling. We have to fix this. The Supreme Court’s rulings and the US Constitution have to matter. There must be consequences for ignoring them - like the president or lawmakers going to jail.

Even if part of the tariffs are rolled back, we may see other ones remain. And I bet they will not make it easy for people to get their money back, and force them into courts. Not that it matters. If people get their money back, it will effectively increase the national debt which hurts citizens anyways.

And let’s not forget the long-term damage of hurting all of the relationships America had with other countries. If Trump wanted to use tariffs as a tool for emergency purposes, he should have just taken action against China and made a case around that (pointing to Taiwan, IP theft, cyber attacks, etc). Instead he implemented blanket tariffs on the whole world, including close allies like Canada.

In the end, my guess is China and India gained from this saga. And the Trump administration’s family and friends gained by trading ahead of every tariff announcement. Americans lost.

saghm 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> And it looks like they’re going to do the same thing Democrats do when they don’t like a SCOTUS ruling, and try to implement the same tariffs in a slightly different way to effectively ignore the ruling

This is kind of a bizarre whataboutism to throw in there. The current administration (with the full support of Congressional majorities in both houses that have largely abdicated any pretense of having their own policy goals) has been flouting constitutional norms pretty much nonstop for a year now and literally ignoring court orders in a way that probably no administration has ever done before, and yet the playbook they're following for extrajudicial activity apparently is from the Democrats? Just because there's bad behavior on both sides doesn't mean that the magnitude of it is equal, and in terms of respect for the rule of law the behavior of the current administration really has no comparison.

SilverElfin 4 hours ago | parent [-]

There is a serious problem in our present constitution and laws that lets both parties ignore the law. Just yesterday we had discussions here about Everytown sponsored legislation that will restrict 3D printers. Do you think California has adhered to constitutional norms with their laws? Do you think they have flouted SCOTUS rulings? Have they done so consistently? What about when Biden was backdooring censorship through big tech?

You can answer these questions for yourself and decide. But for me it’s clear that Democrats have repeatedly violated the first and second amendments and normalized those practices. They’ve played a part in creating the norms that now are exploited by the Trump administration. I consider these amendments to be way more important and consequential than a misuse of IEEPA.

I guess what I’m saying is the two sides are indeed comparable, even if I agree the Trump administration is a greater violator of laws and norms than anything before. And we shouldn’t ignore the rot on either side but instead strengthen the constitution to avoid these abuses.

andsoitis 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If Trump wanted to use tariffs as a tool for emergency purposes, he should have just taken action against China.

What is the emergency with China?

buzzerbetrayed 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I love how it’s “global damage” when the US tariffs counties that are already tariffing them. But no, unfortunately the rest of the world knows the US’s value.

sschueller 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Like Switzerland that basically has zero tariffs on export to the US but was initially slapped with 39% because trump can't stand women in power? What about Brasil where trump stated the 50% tariff is punishment for putting Bolsonaro in prison?

jvandreae 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah, yes, just like he hates Japan and Italy for being run by women.

elsonrodriguez 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There might be some political differences between these three women that may be relevant to the conversation.

flipgimble 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

the "global damage" is largely because these tariffs were arbitrary, lacking strategic planning, and highly inflationary creating a turbulence tax. The frequent reversals and selective granting of exemptions showed that its another tool to enrich the Trump family, cabinet and their business associates. In other worlds the rest of the world stopped trusting the US and started making trade deals on their own.