| You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glorified trading network rather than a legitimate empire. And portugual, like the netherlands, were minor powers within europe. Neither were major global powers as we understand the term and neither were powerful nor significant enough to produce a lingua franca of anything. |
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| ▲ | leflambeur 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline. The Portuguese Empire did exist but AFAIK never did aspire to world hegemony like the U.K. Their idea of empire was best represented by something they briefly had which was the combined union with Brazil after its promotion from colony in 1815. So, not an empire like the U.K. and never wanting to be an empire like the U.K. but also not a total failure to achieve some version of it, however short lived that was. | | |
| ▲ | rmah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes and no. it's not like they ever extracted taxes from most of the natives living in the amazon jungle. Saying that you rule over people that have literally never heard of you is, IMO, stretching the definition of "rule" quite a bit :-) | | |
| ▲ | leflambeur 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Since when is taxing all subjects a necessity? Britain didn't tax people in the 13 colonies so could we conclude that before the American Revolution they were not part of the British Empire? |
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| ▲ | alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the NL never did achieve anything like it. > The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline. Conquering multiple ethnic Malay kingdoms - a number of whom were armed and backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans and had access to gunpowders, naval yards, literacy, and proto-industrialization - and unifying them into Indonesia is a Herculean task that I'd argue is much more complex than the Portuguese project in Brazil. | | |
| ▲ | leflambeur 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | do 99.9% of the people born there speak Dutch? When they became independent, were they 80%+ Reformed Dutch protestants? I don't reject the notion that NL vastly influenced Indonesia but the impact is not even remotely similar to PT and Brazil. | | |
| ▲ | alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Was Brazil inhabited by countries with access to gunpowder, naval yards, proto-industrialization, and allies with transcontinental empires? No. It was largely Amerindians who were exterminated and genocided with ease. Conquering empires that were near-peers technologically is different from settling a continent which was at the losing end of the Colombian exchange. | | |
| ▲ | leflambeur 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You may want to look into the genetic composition of modern-day Brazilians to consider whether "Amerindians were exterminated" is a coherent way to represent it. edit: we are just comparing 2 completely different models here. You're not wrong about some things, you are just talking about a different thing than I :) edit 2: you are lacking information if you think that Brazilian Amerindians did not also partner with European powers (France and the NL itself comes to mind) against the Portuguese and it's somewhat amusing that you think that Portugal was never challenged on that vast territory by other powers. | | |
| ▲ | alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | My point still stands. Their culture was completely decimated and they were largely replaced by European and African migrants, indentured servants, and slaves. Subjugating a native people that lacked metalworking, gunpowder, and literacy is different from conquering multiple nations that had all of those and was backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans. | | |
| ▲ | hugodan 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | and just how did they got the gunpowder? ;) | |
| ▲ | leflambeur 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, lol, that is not how that works. Your point is factually wrong, your point doesn't "stand". |
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| ▲ | christkv an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Dutch had more in common with British East India company phase of the British expansion. |
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| ▲ | gib444 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The Portuguese Empire did exist but AFAIK never did aspire to world hegemony like the U.K Every time I meet a laid back, easy going and kind Portuguese person — which is most of them — I always think that explains their relatively unambitious world domination plans. |
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| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The 1755 earthquake effectively nuked the capital and killed maybe a third of GDP. Portugal was never interested in dominance of Europe - hard to project power to the centre when you're out on the far edge and have more of a navy than an army. But the trade network was the first truly global network, and very much non-trivial. | |
| ▲ | antsou 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is a very good reason why Portugal and the Netherlands were so similar, in this regard! | |
| ▲ | denismenace 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glorified trading network rather than a legitimate empire. nothing more than a glorified crew in New Jersey | | | |
| ▲ | GrowingSideways 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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