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losvedir 5 hours ago

I really like Oxide's take on AI for prose: https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/0576 and how it breaks the "social contract" where usually it takes more effort to write than to read, and so you have a sense that it's worth it to read.

So I get the frustration that "ai;dr" captures. On the other hand, I've also seen human writing incorrectly labeled AI. I wrote (using AI!) https://seeitwritten.com as a bit of an experiment on that front. It basically is a little keylogger that records your composition of the comment, so someone can replay it and see that it was written by a human (or a very sophisticated agent!). I've found it to be a little unsettling, though, having your rewrites and false starts available for all to see, so I'm not sure if I like it.

ssiddharth 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My biggest sorrow right now is the fact that my beloved emdash is a major signal for AI generated content. I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second.

manuelmoreale 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second.

Wrote about this before [0] but my 2c: you shouldn't pause and you should keep using them because fuck these companies and their AI tools. We should not give them the power to dictate how we write.

[0]: https://manuelmoreale.com/thoughts/on-em-dashes

Lalabadie 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For what it's worth, whatever LLMs do extensively, they do because it's a convention in well-established writing styles.

LLMs have a bias towards expertise and confidence due to the proportion of books in their training set. They also lean towards an academic writing style for the same reason.

All this to say, if LLMs write like you were already writing, it means you have very good foundations. It's fine to avoid them out of fear, but you have this Internet stranger's permission to use your em dash pause to think "Oh yeah, I'm the reference for writing style."

petters 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I think that bias is not due to the proportion of books and more due to how they are fine-tuned after the pretraining.

djhn 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Aren’t books massively outweighed by the crawled internet corpus?

r_lee an hour ago | parent [-]

I would doubt that because books are probably weighed as higher quality and more trustworthy than random Reddit posts

Especially if it's unsupervised training

eYrKEC2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I used to enjoy the literate usage of the word "literally".

You'll get over it.

peterashford 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Using literally to mean figuratively goes back hundreds of years

duskwuff 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

Not to mention "seriously", "really", "truly", "very", "verily", etc. There's a long history of using words related to truth as intensifiers in English.

catoc 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly this! I love(d) using em dashes. Now they’ve become ehm dashes, experiencing exactly that pause — that moment of hesitation — that you describe

deron12 4 hours ago | parent [-]

AI never uses em dashes in a pair like this, whereas most people who like em dashes do. Anyone who calls paired em dash writing AI is only revealing themselves to be a duffer.

Yizahi an hour ago | parent | next [-]

In my limited text generation experience, LLMs use em-dashes precisely like that, only without spaces on the sides and always in pairs in a single sentence. Here some examples from my Gemini history:

"The colors we see—like blue, green, and hazel—are the result of Tyndall scattering."

"Several interlocking cognitive biases create a "safety net" around the familiar, making the unknown—even if objectively better—feel like a threat."

"A retrograde satellite will pass over its launch region twice every 24 hours—once on a "northbound" track and once on a "southbound" track—but because of the way Earth rotates, it won't pass over the exact same spot on every orbit."

"Central, leverages streaming telemetry to provide granular, real-time performance data—including metrics (e.g., CPU utilization, throughput, latency), logs, and traces—from its virtualized core and network edge devices."

"When these conditions are met—indicating a potential degradation in service quality (e.g., increased modem registration failures, high latency on a specific Remote PHY)—Grafana automatically triggers notifications through configured contact points (e.g., Slack, PagerDuty)."

After collecting these samples I've noticed that they are especially probably in questions like explain something or write descriptive text. In the short queries there is not much text in total to trigger this effect.

catoc 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> ”AI never uses em dashes in a pair”

I wish that were true, but I feel a little bit vindicated nevertheless

Lio 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can still use them — it’s just that now they have a new purpose; getting things ignored by AI detection or AI;DR.

Now you can ask for outlandish things at work knowing your boss won’t read it and his summariser will ignore it as slop — win.

tkzed49 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've gone back to using two dashes--LLMs typically don't write them that way.

4b11b4 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also, unfortunately I have in my global instructions to never use em dashes...

4b11b4 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe I'll get over it eventually.

nxobject 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What I do – and I know this isn't conventional style – is use ex dashes. (Or, you could use spaces between em dashes, as incorrect as it is.)

OGWhales 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've noticed that LLMs generated text often has spaces around em dashes, which I found odd. They don't always do that, but they do it often enough that it stood out to me since that isn't what you'd normally see.

treetalker an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Or, you could use spaces between em dashes, as incorrect as it is.

It's a matter of style preference. I support spaces around em-dashes — particularly for online writing, since em-dashes without spaces make selecting and copying text with precision an unnecessary frustration.

By the way,what other punctuation mark receives no space on at least one side?Wouldn't it look odd,make sentences harder to read,and make ideas more difficult to grok?I certainly think so.Don't you? /s

wiseowise 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I use it to trigger false positives in haters – why not?

archagon 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To quote Office Space, “Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.”

parsimo2010 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Mostly because when I see an em dash now, I assume that it was written by AI, not that the author is one of the people who puts enough effort into their product that they intentionally use specific sized dashes.

AI might suck, but if the author doesn't change, they get categorized as a lazy AI user, unless the rest of their writing is so spectacular that it's obvious an AI didn't write it.

My personal situation is fine though. AI writing usually has better sentence structure, so it's pretty easy (to me at least) to distinguish my own writing from AI because I have run-on sentences and too many commas. Nobody will ever confuse me with a lazy AI user, I'm just plain bad at writing.

kevstev an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As someone who frequently posts online- with em dashes- I wonder if I am part of the problem with training llms to use them so much- and am going to get punished in the future for doing so.

I also tend to way overuse parenthesis (because I tend to wander in the middle of sentences) but they haven't shown up much in llms so /shrug.

98codes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> assume

There's your trouble. The real problem is that most internet users are setting their baseline for "standard issue human writing" at exactly the level they themselves write. The problem is that more and more people do not draw a line between casual/professional writing, and as such balk at very normal professional writing as potentially AI-driven.

Blame OS developers for making it easy—SO easy!—to add all manner of special characters while typing if you wish, but the use of those characters, once they were within easy reach, grew well before AI writing became a widespread thing. If it hadn't, would AI be using it so much now?

4 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
wrs 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you’re judging my writing so shallowly, I don’t think I’m writing for you.

lelanthran 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> If you’re judging my writing so shallowly, I don’t think I’m writing for you.

No, you are writing for people who see LLM-signals and read on anyway.

Not sure that that's a win for you.

wrs 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"Seeing LLM-signals" == "reading shallowly", so I think I covered that case.

collingreen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To continue the story, the guy saying this got fired and probably wouldn't have without taking this stand.

Bukhmanizer 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You’re absolutely right. I hate AI writing — it’s not that I hate AI, it’s that it makes everything it says sound a specific combination of smug and authoritative — No matter the content. Once you realize it’s not saying anything, that’s the real aha moment.

\s

woopwoop 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like the idea that various communications media have implicit social contracts that can be broken. In my opinion, power point presentations break an implicit social contract that is held in handwritten talks: if it's worth you displaying a piece of information, so that I the listener feel the need to take it in or even copy it down, it has to be worth your time to actually physically write it on the board. With power point talks this is not honored, and the average power point talk is much, much worse than the average chalk talk. I bet there are lots of other examples.

smithza 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Go thee to the land of government contracting and see thou how well thine ideas hold up.

woopwoop 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I actually have worked in this space and it, uh, has not shaken my belief that powerpoint talks are bad.

steveBK123 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem with Ai writing is that its a waste of everyones time.

It’s literal content expansion, the opposite of gzip’ing a file.

It’s like a kid who has a 500 word essay due tomorrow who needs to pad their actual message up to spec.

AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, LLMs can be either side of that. They can also be used to turn something verbose into a series of bullet points.

I agree that reading an LLM-produced essay is a waste of time and (human) attention. But in the case of overly-verbose human writing, it's the human that's wasting my time[1], and the LLM is gzip'ing the spew.

[1] Looking at you, New Yorker magazine.

steveBK123 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Right we are headed towards LLM generated slop summarized by another LLM. Wire format is expanded slop.

jimkleiber 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In 2020 at the start of covid, I did an experiment I called Project 35 where, for 35 days straight before my 35th birthday, I wrote 3 times per day, for 10 minutes each, I livestreamed it and whatever I wrote I would put directly into a book with no edits. While I didn't invite many people to join the calls (maybe fear, maybe just not wanting to coordinate it all), I found the process to be more raw, more human, and less perfect than 10x edited writing. It also helped me get better at typing in the moment and not rewriting everything, especially for social media, HN, and other places.

Anyway, it's at https://www.jimkleiber.com/p35/ if you wanna check it out, all sessions posted as blog posts, I think there's a link to the ebook (pay-what-you-want) and there may be audio (I recorded myself reading the writing right after each session).

If you check it out, please let me know :-)

comboy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> https://seeitwritten.com

Fun, I'd make playback speed something like 5x or whatever feels appropriate, I think nobody truly wants to watch those at 1x.

miniatureape 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I had a take on this same thing a number of years ago. Much simpler, but the idea was just to see it at a glance. https://miniatureape.github.io/sprezzatura/

comboy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

yeah the idea is not new at all:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557191

I can't believe etherpad lost this item...

edit: oh, I found the one I was looking for: https://byronm.com/13sentences.html

mikestew 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Years ago I wrote something similar to test a biometric security piece that used keystroke timings (dwell and stroke) to determine if the person typing the password is the same person who owns the account. Short version of a long story is that it would be trivial to get data for AI to reproduce human typing. Because I did it years ago using something only slightly more sophisticated than urandom.

onionisafruit 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like the idea, but personally I would rather be thought a bot than show that I’m a human idiot who takes three tries to spell basic words.

hinkley 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Based on the programs I was nudged to as a child, it was a surprise to no one but me that I scored higher verbal on the SATs than I did math, which I would have told you was my favorite subject. Despite the fact that French was my easiest subject. I can still picture the look on my french teacher’s face if I’d have mentioned this in front of him.

There are a lot of people like me in software. I’m tempted to say we are “shouted down”, but honestly it’s hard to be shouted down when you can talk circles around some people. But we are definitely in a minority. There are actually a lot of parallels between creative writing and software and a few things that are more than parallel. Like refactoring.

If you’re actually present when writing docs instead of monologuing in your head about how you hate doing “this shit”, then there’s a lot of rubber ducking that can be done while writing documentation. And while I can’t say that “let the AI do it” will wipe out 100% of this value, because the AI will document what you wrote instead of what you meant to write, I do think you will lose at least 80% of that value by skipping out on these steps.

benob 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You could totally make a believable timing generation model from a few (hundreds) recordings of human writing. Detecting AI is hard...

unglaublich 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This can only be fixed by authors paying humans to read instead of the other way around.

usefulposter 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

LLM-generated prose undermines a social contract of sorts: absent LLMs, it is presumed that of the reader and the writer, it is the writer that has undertaken the greater intellectual exertion. (Cantrill)

The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it. (Brandolini)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

mystraline 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, Oxide is a joke.

They want all this artisnal hand written prose under the candle light with the moon in the background. And you are a horrible person for using AI, blablabla.

But ask for feedback? And you get Inky, Blinky, Pinky, and Clyde. Aka ghosted. But boy, do they tell a good story. Just ain't fucking true.

Counter: companies deserve the same amount of time invested in their application as they spend on your response.