Most of the developed countries are facing this.

I think our financial/defense systems are not prepared for population decline, so I foresee a lot of turbulence.

The new left will call for more immigration and more globalism to avoid wars, but will have to deal with integration of swaths of immigrants.

The new right will call for closing of the borders and double down on AI doing the work of producing and defending, but will have to deal with the fact that AI will not be ready for that.

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brightball 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've watched most of my life as narratives have been pushed in popular culture, TV, music, magazines, online articles, etc that go out of their way to convince people not to have children. Just some examples of trends I've observed personally.

- Scare media about the cost of having children

- Scare media about the environmental impact of having children, even calling it irresponsible for the planet

- Scare media about the state of the world aka "how could you bring a child into this" when, at least in the western world, we have the highest standard of living in human history.

- Scare media about motherhood, things not working out with your husband, kids being brats who don't respect you and constantly living in a house of sadness.

- Scare media about fatherhood promoting the idea of women having a baby just to hook the father for child support and the divorcing him.

- Scare media about having to trade your career for a family

All of this while growing up and realizing more and more, by talking to everyone around me, people older than me, friends of my parents, my other friends in their 40s and on down the line...there is nothing in this world that brings people more joy than their families and their children. Nothing. It's devastating for the people who I know who can't have children despite all of their attempts and even then tends to lead to adoption in many cases.

All of the narratives, trend marketing and media capitalize on a story that people have been invested in pushing for decades that is at worst an outright lie and at best a half truth to accomplish some political goals.

People need each other. Men need women. Women need men. Children need both parents. And we are all better for it. No matter how broke you think you are or how much you think it will cost, you will figure it out together. People do this all the time with less than you have ever had in your life and they make it work. Together. And it's worth it.

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bittercynic 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As a man who's never wanted kids, and is now getting to an age where it probably wouldn't be a good idea, those weren't really the big factors for me.

Having a kid is just an unfathomably large commitment. If you bring a kid into the world, I believe you're responsible for creating the conditions where that kid can grow into a healthy, well adjusted adult, and that's seemed like an increasingly impossible commitment for the past few decades.

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jpadkins 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not that hard. Sorry you missed out on a wonderful thing. You are not responsible for the world or its conditions. You just have to support the kid and be a good role model, that is 95% of the job.

	▲	whatever1 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Is bringing a kid into slavery or a warzone ethical? To enjoy this life you need free will aka be provided with options. So there is definitely a lower bound of conditions that a parent should be able to satisfy.
	▲	bittercynic 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Don't be sorry, I got what I wanted, and am content with my life. We have to miss out one one thing to enjoy something else.
	▲	malcolmgreaves 22 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		You're definitely responsible for the environment you bring a kid into. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world. You're the parent and ultimately you're responsible for the environment where you raise your children. You're responsible for having the right resources to raise them trauma-free. Did you...not realize this when you made kids?

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showerst 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have a small child. It's awesome!

It's also enormously stressful and expensive. We're stopping at one where in past times a family like ours might've had 2-3. There are a variety of reasons, but cost in money, time, and housing are big factors. I'm very well off compared to most Americans, so I can see why if you're even marginally on the fence it has tipped into a no.

"Make it work" is a great thing to say on the internet, but not very good advice to people who are one broken down car or health issue away from not making rent, which is a LOT of young Americans.

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unyttigfjelltol 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe all these things are true at the same time. More of a “is it better to have loved and lost than never loved at all” kind of dialogue.

In the midst of grief over any of the topics above, compounded by an indifferentand maladapted system, I think it’s completely understandable that folks could have a lot to say about these challenges.

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mullingitover 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> there is nothing in this world that brings people more joy than their families and their children. Nothing.

Counterpoint: Yes, you're giving the standard apologetic we all hear from parents. However, plain and simple, objectively it's typically the most stressful thing you will do in your entire life. It's so bad the US Surgeon General had to put out an entire advisory paper about it[1]:

> 41% of parents say that most days they are so stressed they cannot function and 48% say that most days their stress is completely overwhelming compared to other adults (20% and 26%, respectively).

[1] https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu...

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snikeris 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It's a tale as old as life itself. Some organisms succeed in coping with the environment they find themselves in. The genes and culture of these organisms gets passed on to the next generation.

	▲	malcolmgreaves 21 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Except not, since these stats are about organisms that are not succeeding in the environment and yet have reproduced.

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anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

yeah and? i thought it was generally agreed that the best things worth doing in life are hard? a life of comfort and hedonism isnt fulfilling. We've known this for thousands of year.

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mullingitover 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Having children itself can often be a form of hedonism. Let's face it: for many, the decision to have a child is very similar to the decision to have an exotic pet. People frequently/usually do it just for the social status boost they expect to receive.

And if we're talking about having children in the context of history: for basically all of history except the rounding error of the past century, children were your social security/pension/401k rolled into one. Children were literally your property, a form of wealth and certainly not a sacrifice.

	▲	anthonypasq 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> Having children itself can often be a form of hedonism. Let's face it: for many, the decision to have a child is very similar to the decision to have an exotic pet. People frequently/usually do it just for the social status boost they expect to receive. I actually don't think I've ever read anything that made as little contact with reality as this. Its actually impressive. If you actually think this is in any way true, you need to deeply deeply reevaluate the way you perceive the world.

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hackable_sand 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Much to do about nothing