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clintfred 6 hours ago

Facts are the enemy.

I remember reading books like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 as a teen thinking, "Cool story, but the US will never look like that." Oof.

nostrademons 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

FWIW both of these books were written about western societies. 1984 was about Orwell’s experience writing propaganda for the BBC during WW2. Oceania is explicitly modeled on the U.S. + Britain; “air strip one” is his tongue-in-cheek name for the British isles. Fahrenheit 451 is based on the second red scare and McCarthyism in the U.S. It’s explicitly set in America, and the inspiration for it was actual calls to ban books in the U.S.

They not only could happen here, they did happen here. It’s a testament to the power of propaganda that people view them as a hypothetical rather than as a lightly fictionalized documentary where the countries were changed to prevent the authors from going to jail.

casenmgreen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I looked to see if I could find anything asserting 1984 was about propaganda at BBC - nothing.

I found no interviews, no recordings - it seems what survives are his notebooks.

Can you describe the basis for the claim?

protocolture 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Its definitely an element, but it also mirrors some experiences in spain and ripping off Zamyatin's "We".

Like if you take Zamyatin's "We", and make the main character a propagandist working for the government, you get 1984.

nialv7 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Spooky23 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dig deeper. Orwell was a child of the empire, born in Bengal and served with the Indian Imperial Police in Burma. His service affected him deeply.

He wrote of it, and in some ways his writing on those times is better than his fiction.

andy_ppp 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

ChatGPT says his experience did make him think about bureaucracy in organisations leading to untruths but to say it’s the basis of 1984 is clearly absurd, it’s a much more complex book than an allegory of propaganda for the BBC.

SapporoChris 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thank you for inspiring me to look up the sources for the literary motifs in 1984.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Sources_f...

A very interesting read, but it did not verify any of your claims.

n1b0m 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While it’s true that the day-to-day misery and bureaucratic absurdity of 1984 were heavily shaped by Orwell's time at the BBC, he primarily wrote the novel as a cautionary warning against the rise of totalitarianism and the dangers of a centralized, surveilled state.

Having witnessed the horrors of Nazi Germany, the rise of Stalinist Russia, and the Spanish Civil War, Orwell wanted to expose the mechanisms of oppression and propaganda.

indubioprorubik 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Eh, orwell got his fare share of socialisation with socialism in spain and became a ardent anti-communist (more anti-totalitarian after seeing what this "experiment was all about" when it betrayed the anarchists).

Its like animal farm a staunch criticism of the communist experiment and the societies it would form. The history rewritting was actually a typical socialist society pehnomena, going so far that china basically erased its whole past permanently. Its a incredible young country (barely 70 years old) and had to reimport a ton of its culture from taiwan!

Orwell lived through the hyper akward year, where hitler and stalin where allies and best friends - and thus saw the moscow controlled part of the international defending facists as best friends for a year, right after they stabbed the anarchists in the back in spain.

b00ty4breakfast 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

The Spanish civil war turned him into a socialist. His anti-stalin/anti-Soviet streak was in no way anti-communist. perhaps you shouldn't be so weasel-y with your wording.

boshomi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” ― George Orwell, 1984 (2026?)

normalaccess 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Just wait until the AI "layer" gets fast enough to rewrite the web in real time. Text, Photos, Videos, even real time phone calls will soon be in the grasp of the corporations. Forever locking us into our own personal prisons, controlled silos of information perfectly crafted and tailored to extract the maximum value where truth is not just hard to know but is imposable to know.

gffrd 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s a shame we don’t have physical bodies and a means to share the human experience with other humans without intermediaries.

SketchySeaBeast 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What's your plan, be present at all major events?

joriJordan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wild. Growing up through Reagan, I saw the world only act like this.

Apple's 1984 commercial didn't age well: https://youtu.be/ErwS24cBZPc

Everyone ran towards this Brave New World based on media fueled populism.

To me religion isn't Christianity or Islam. It's following orders of arbitrary leaders who give themselves titles via narrative. Priest, Minister, CEO, General... just words.

Provenance such as "this is what I want to do with my life" are poor justification for enabling it.

GS523523 an hour ago | parent [-]

> To me religion isn't Christianity or Islam. It's following orders of arbitrary leaders who give themselves titles via narrative. Priest, Minister, CEO, General... just words.

Religion = doing what your boss told you. Got it, that makes sense why so many people are religious.

Fairburn an hour ago | parent [-]

Religion = blind loyalty (to those in power of said religion)

It's one of the oldest tools we have to control society. And it gets abused. All. Of. The. Time.

Xmd5a 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever.

I think it's the idea of the boot that is stamping on this human face. We're in an open society, 1984 makes up for a good contrast that pushes us in the right direction.

j-bos 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel that way everytime I go for a walk in a well populated neighborhood, and there's nobody around. Or at work hearing about how people spend hours with their glowing walls of faces that talk endlessly about nothing, they say soon the faces will be able to talk back to!

niobe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Having said that, there is nothing there that isn't public information. I guess the CIA's name added some weight but this could easily be published by any public institution interested in foreign affairs.

deepsun 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Brunhilde Pomsel, Joseph Goebbels’s former personal secretary, said something like "even when we heard about atrocities, we didn't believe it, because come on, Germany was the most civilized, most developed country in the world, we couldn't do such things".

irishcoffee 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Brave New World always gets overlooked. I understand why we gravitate towards 1984, however it sure seems like we are much closer to BNW. What is TikTok (read: all of the addictive parts of the internet/smartphones) if not a gramme?

oliyoung an hour ago | parent | next [-]

BNW has proven to be far more prescient, and insidiously so, than 1984

irishcoffee an hour ago | parent [-]

Yeah, that and Atlas Shrugged, but mentioning that book is a magnet for dissention.

Edit: I was correct, and I don't understand why. Was AS somehow twisted for political reasons? It's a great book.

gampleman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I always thought if Orwell was quite prescient of the eastern block than surely Huxley was even more so about the western.

pohl 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Huxley was plenty prescient. Soma is basically scrolling for dopamine hits and distraction.

dizlexic 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I love that you're lamenting a CIA website closure as a step toward dystopia... 10/10

It could be as simple as budget changes.

antiframe 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the lament is the rise of the "facts are the enemy" stance is a step towards dystopia.

I recently learned that if we converted all the land we use to grow corn for ethanol (not food) into solar farms the US would produce 84% more energy than it currently produces (from all sources) [1]. Of course that's a huge undertaking, but we're not even talking about it because pesky things like facts are swept aside in lieu of punchy counters like: panels are expensive (they're not), we don't have the land (we do), what about the batteries (solved problem with today's--let along tomorrow's tech), the corn best doesn't get enough sun (it does), etc.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM

iAMkenough 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Real reason to remove the facts and archive of the records is so that they're not cited in deportation litigation and government lawyers don't have to argue against the facts the government holds true

dizlexic 2 hours ago | parent [-]

source or evidence of this?

guywithahat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But these are publications written by the CIA. Factbook was a name given to the book by the CIA, nobody is banning facts, that's just what they called it. It presumably just doesn't make sense anymore for the CIA maintain an encyclopedia, and I'm surprised they haven't sunset the program sooner.

ericras 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

milesvp 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This drips of sarcasm. While the parent comment is low quality, it can be seen as merely noise. your comment actively makes this site toxic. Please refrain from such comments in the future.

nothrabannosir 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think it’s satire, not sarcasm. Mocking sycophant but ultimately hollow AIs, by imitating them. And, in the end, concurring with GP. Highlighting both the ways in which GP is correct, and filling in the gaps in implementation between the originally proposed dystopia, and the one we actively find ourselves marching towards.

Upvote from me :)

Noaidi 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> While the parent comment is low quality

I disagree with this. I think the comment was perfect quality. As we are slowly sinking into totalitarianism in the US, you will understand that this "noise" was in fact the signal you should have been listening to.

milesvp 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Forgive me, my bar is high, but I tend to agree with you. I didn’t have a good way to indicate that I find value in a small number of comments like these without potentially undermining my greater desire to avoid toxic comments here.

andrewmcwatters 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Your back-seat moderation is annoying and contributes to the wank of the site, too.

eth0up 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'll second here. While not profound, I found myself nodding, involuntarily, in agreement.