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iberator 15 hours ago

Another useless feature into Linux kernel. Who uses swap space nowadays?! Last time I used swap on Linux device was around Pentium 2 era but in reality closer to 486DX era

Titan2189 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We use it in production. Workloads with unpredictable memory usage (32Mb to 4Gb per process), but we also want to start enough processes to saturate the CPU. Before we configured & enabled swap we were either sitting at low CPU utilisation or OOM

ch_123 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I ran Linux without swap for some years on a laptop with a large-for-the-time amount of RAM (about 8GB). It _mostly_ worked, but sudden spikes of memory usage would render the system unresponsive. Usually it would recover, but it in some cases it required a power cycle.

Similarly, on a server where you might expect most of the physical memory to get used, it ends up being very important for stability. Think of VM or container hosts in particular.

GCUMstlyHarmls 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I dont get why anti-swap is so prevalent in Linux discussions. Like, what does it hurt to stick 8-16-32gb extra "oh fuck" space on your drive.

Either you're going to never exhaust your system ram, so it doesn't matter, minimally exhaust it and swap in some peak load but at least nothing goes down, or exhaust it all and start having things get OOM'd which feels bad to me.

Am I out of touch? Surely it's the children who are wrong.

manuel_w 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The pro-swap stance has never made sense to me because it feels like a logical loop.

There’s a common rule of thumb that says you should have swap space equal to some multiple of your RAM.

For instance, if I have 8 GB of RAM, people recommend adding 8 GB of swap. But since I like having plenty of memory, I install 16 GB of RAM instead—and yet, people still tell me to use swap. Why? At that point, I already have the same total memory as those with 8 GB of RAM and 8 GB of swap combined.

Then, if I upgrade to 24 GB of RAM, the advice doesn’t change—they still insist on enabling swap. I could install an absurd amount of RAM, and people would still tell me to set up swap space.

It seems that for some, using swap has become dogma. I just don’t see the reasoning. Memory is limited either way; whether it’s RAM or RAM + swap, the total available space is what really matters. So why insist on swap for its own sake?

rstuart4133 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's true that if you always have free RAM, you don't need swap. But most people don't have that it can always be used as a disk cache. Even if you are just web browsing, the browser is writing to disk stuff fetched from the internet in the hopes it won't change, the OS is will be keeping all of that in RAM until no more will fit.

Once the system has used all available RAM if has for disk cache it has a choice if it has swap. It can write write modified RAM to swap, and use the space it freed for disk cache. There is invariably some RAM where that tradeoff works - RAM use by login programs, and other servers that haven't been accessed in hours. Assuming the system is tuned well, that is all that goes to swap. The freed RAM is then used for disk cache, and your system runs faster - merely because you added swap.

There is no penalty for giving a system too much swap (apart from disk space), as the OS will just use it up until the tradeoff doesn't make sense. If your system is running slow because swap is being overused the fix isn't removing swap (if you did you system may die because of lack of RAM), it's to add RAM until swap usage goes down.

So, the swap recipe is: give your system so much swap you are sure it exceeds the size of stuff that's running but not used. 4Gb is probably fine for a desktop. Monitor it occasionally, particularly if your system slows down. If swap usage ever goes above 1Gb, you probably need to add RAM.

On servers swap can be used to handle DDOS from malicious logins. I've seen 1000's of ssh attempts happen at once, in an attempt to break in. Eventually the system will notice and firewall the IP's doing it. If you don't have swap, those login's will kill the system unless you have huge amounts of RAM that isn't normally used. With swap it slows to a crawl, but then recovers when the firewall kicks in. So both provisioning swap and having loads of RAM prevent DDOS's from killing your system, but this is in a VM, one costs me far more per month than the other, and I'm trying fix to a problem that happens very rarely.

viraptor 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're mashing together two groups. One claims having swap is good actually. The other claims you need N times ram for swap. They're not the same group.

> Memory is limited either way; whether it’s RAM or RAM + swap

For two reasons: usage spikes and actually having more usable memory. There's lots of unused pages on a typical system. You get free ram for the price of cheap storage, so why wouldn't you?

man8alexd 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This rule of thumb is outdated by two decades.

The proper rule of thumb is to make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens.

tremon 14 hours ago | parent [-]

That's not useful as a rule of thumb, since you can't know the size of "all inactive anonymous pages" without doing extensive runtime analysis of the system under consideration. That's pretty much the opposite of what a rule of thumb is for.

man8alexd 14 hours ago | parent [-]

You are right, it is not a rule of thumb, and you can't determine optimal swap size right away. But you don't need "extensive runtime analysis". Start with a small swap - a few hundred megabytes (assuming the system has GBs of RAM). Check its utilization periodically. If it is full, add a few hundred megabytes more. That's all.

ZoomZoomZoom 13 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not like it's easy to shuffle partitions around. Swap files are a pain, so you need to reserve space at the end of the table. By the time you need to increase swap the previous partition is going to be full.

Better overcommit right away and live with the feeling you're wasting space.

rascul 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Swap files are a pain

Easier than partitions:

    mkswap --size 2G --file swap.img
    swapon swap.img
ZoomZoomZoom 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah, until you need to hibernate to one. I understand that calculating file offsets is not rocket science, but still, all the dance required is not exactly uninvolved and feels a bit fragile.

man8alexd 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly opposite. Don't use swap partitions, and use swap files, even multiple if necessary. Never allocate too much swap space. It is better to get OOM earlier then to wait for unresponsive system.

ZoomZoomZoom 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Swap partition is set and forget. Can be detected by label automatically, never fails.

Swap file means fallocating, setting extended attributes (like `nocow`), finding file offset and writing it to kernel params, and other gotchas, like btrfs not allowing snapshotting a subvolume with an active swap file.

Technically it's preferable, won't argue with that.

direwolf20 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hast thou discovered our lord and savior LVM?

dspillett 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There’s a common rule of thumb that says you should have swap space equal to some multiple of your RAM.

That rule came about when RAM was measured in a couple of MB rather than GB, and hasn't made sense for a long time in most circumstances (if you are paging our a few GB of stuff on spinning drives your system is likely to be stalling so hard due to disk thrashing that you hit the power switch, and on SSDs you are not-so-slowly killing them due to the excess writing).

That doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea to have a little allocated just-in-case. And as RAM prices soar while IO throughput & latency are low, we may see larger Swap/RAM ratios being useful again as RAM sizes are constrained by working-sets aren't getting any smaller.

In a theoretical ideal computer, which the actual designs we have are leaky-abstraction laden implementations of, things are the other way around: all the online storage is your active memory and RAM is just the first level of cache. That ideal hasn't historically ended up being what we have because the disparities in speed & latency between other online storage and RAM have been so high (several orders of magnitude), fast RAM has been volatile, and hardware & software designs or not stable & correct enough such that regular complete state resets are necessary.

> Why? At that point, I already have the same total memory as those with 8 GB of RAM and 8 GB of swap combined.

Because your need for fast immediate storage has increased, so 8-quick-8-slow is no longer sufficient. You are right in that this doesn't mean you need 16-quick-16-slow is sensible, and 128-quick-128-slow would be ridiculous. But no swap at all doesn't make sense either: on your machine imbued with silly amounts of RAM are you really going to miss a few GB of space allocated just-in-case? When it could be the difference between slower operation for a short while and some thing(s) getting OOM-killed?

man8alexd 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Swap is not a replacement for RAM. It is not just slow. It is very-very-very slow. Even SSDs are 10^3 slower at random access with small 4K blocks. Swap is for allocated but unused memory. If the system tries to use swap as active memory, it is going to become unresponsive very quickly - 0.1% memory excess causes a 2x degradation, 1% - 10x degradation, 10% - 100x degradation.

AtlasBarfed 9 hours ago | parent [-]

What is allocated but unused memory? That sounds like memory that will be used in the near future and we are scheduling in an annoying disk load when it is needed

You are of course highlighting the problem that virtual addressing was intended to over abstract memory resource usage, but it provides poor facilities for power users to finely prioritize memory usage.

The example of this is game consoles, which didn't have this layer. Game writers had to reserve parts of ram fur specific uses.

You can't do this easily in Linux afaik, because it is forcing the model upon you.

man8alexd 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Unused or Inactive memory is memory that hasn't been accessed recently. The kernel maintains LRU (least recently used) lists for most of its memory pages. The kernel memory management works on the assumption that the least recently used pages are least likely to be accessed soon. Under memory pressure, when the kernel needs to free some memory pages, it swaps out pages at the tail of the inactive anonymous LRU.

Cgroup limits and OOM scores allow to prioritize memory usage on a per-process and per-process group basis. madvise(2) syscall allows to prioritize memory usage within a process.

xorcist 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is too much focus in this discussion about low memory situations. You want to avoid those as much as possible. Set reasonable ulimit for your applications.

The reason you want swap is because everything in the Linux (and all of UNIX really) is written with virtual memory in mind. Everything from applications to schedulers will have that use case in mind. That's the short answer.

Memory is expensive and storage is cheap. Even if you have 16 GB RAM in your box, and perhaps especially then, you will have some unused pages. Paging out those and utilizing more memory to buffer I/O will give you higher performance under most normal circumstances. So having a little bit of swap should help performance.

For laptops hibernation can be useful too.

Balinares 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another factor other commenters haven't mentioned, although the article does bring it up: you may disable swap and you will still get paging behavior regardless, because in a pinch the kernel will reclaim pages that are mmapped to files. Most typically binaries and librairies. Which means the process in question will incur a map page read next time it schedules. But of course you're out of memory, so the kernel will need to page out another process's code page to make room, and when that process next schedules... Etc.

This has far worse degradation behavior than normal swapping of regular data pages. That at least gives you the breathing space to still schedule processes when under memory pressure, such as whichever OOM killer you favor.

man8alexd 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Binaries and libraries are not paged out. Being read-only, they are simply discarded from the memory. And I'll repeat, actively used executable pages are explicitly excluded from reclaim and never discarded.

t-3 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The reason you're supposed to have swap equal in size to your RAM is so that you can hibernate, not to make things faster. You can easily get away with far less than that because swap is rarely needed.

dspillett 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> so that you can hibernate

The “paging space needs to be X*RAM” and “paging space needs to be RAM+Y” predate hibernate being a common thing (even a thing at all), with hibernate being an extra use for that paging space not the reason it is there in the first place. Some OSs have hibernate space allocated separately from paging/swap space.

Balinares 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I do wish there was a way to reserve swap spaces for hibernation that don't contribute to the virtual memory. Else by construction the hibernation space is not sufficient for the entire virtual memory space, and hibernation will fail when the virtual memory is getting full.

em-bee 10 hours ago | parent [-]

this. i don't even want swap for my apps. they allocate to much memory as it is. i'd rather they be killed when the memory runs out or simply be prevented from allocating memory that's not there. the kind of apps that can be safely swapped out are rarely using much memory anyways.

but i do want hibernate to work.

ch_123 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're implying that people are telling you to set up swap without any reason, when in fact there are good reasons - namely dealing with memory pressure. Maybe you could fit so much RAM into your computer that you never hit pressure - but why would you do that vs allocating a few GB of disk space for swap?

Also, as has been pointed out by another commenter, 8GB of swap for a system with 8GB of physical memory is overkill.

tremon 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm also in the GP's camp; RAM is for volatile data, disk is for data persistence. The first "why would you do that" that needs to be addressed is why volatile data should be written to disk. And "it's just a few % of your disk" is not a sufficient answer to that question.

112233 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> RAM is for volatile data, disk is for data persistence.

Genuinely curious where this idea has come from. Is it something being taught currently?

tremon 11 hours ago | parent [-]

No, not currently -- since the start of computers. This is quite literally part of Computing 101; see https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs101/lecture02.html#/9 , slides 10-12.

You can ask your favourite search engine or language fabricator about the differences between RAM and disk storage, they will all tell you the same thing. Frankly, it's kind of astonishing that this needs to be explained on a site like HN.

112233 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I have no idea where on those slides it says non-volatile storage should not be used for non-permanent, temporary data.

It does note main differences (speed, latency, permanence). How does that limit what data disk can be used for?

What would one use optane DIMMs for?

Also, if my program requires huge working set to process the data, why would I spend the effort and implement my own paging to templrary working files, instead of allocating ridiculous amount of memory and letting OS manage it for me? What is the benefit?

ch_123 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because of cost - particularly given the current state of the RAM market. In order to have so much memory that you never hit memory spikes, you will deliberately need to buy RAM to never be used.

Note that simply buying more RAM than what you expect to use is not going to help. Going back to my post from earlier, I had a laptop with 8GB of RAM at a time where I would usually only need about 2-4GB of RAM for even relatively heavy usage. However, every once in a while, I would run something that would spike memory usage and make the system unresponsive. While I have much more than 8GB nowadays, I'm not convinced that it's enough to have completely outrun the risk of this sort of behaviour re-occuring.

em-bee 10 hours ago | parent [-]

how much swap do you have? i have 16GB now, and 16GB ram. i had a machine before with 48GB ram. obviously having more ram and no swap should perform better than the same amount of memory split into ram and swap.

man8alexd 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

8-16-32gb of swap space without cgroup limits would get the system into swap thrashing and make it unresponsive.

ch_123 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's some kind of misplaced desire to be "lightweight" and avoid allocating disk space that cannot be used for regular storage. My motivation way back when for wanting to avoid swap was due to concerns about SSD wear issues, but those have been solved for a long time ago.

direwolf20 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Swap causes thrashing, making the whole system unusable, instead of a clean OOM kill

NekkoDroid 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

IMO OOM killing should be reserved for single processes misbehaving. When a lot of different applications just use a decent amount of memory and exhaust the system RAM swapping to disk is the appropriate thing to do.

man8alexd 12 hours ago | parent [-]

When you set cgroup limits, you tell the kernel how to determine when a process is misbehaving and needs to be OOM-killed.

man8alexd 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

swap causes thrashing if you have too large swap and no cgroup limits.

AtlasBarfed 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

1) in the Microsoft days I would have a lot of available ram, bur windows still would aggressively swap, and I would get enraged when changing to an app that would have to swap in while I had 4gb of memory free

2) the os tried to be magical, but a swap thrash is still crap... I would much rather oom kill apps than swap thrash. For a desktop user: kill the fucking browser or electron apps, don't freeze the system/ui.

solstice 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I had a similar experience with Kubuntu on a xps13 from 2016 with only 8GB of RAM and the system suddenly freezing so hard that a hard reboot was required. While looking for the cause, I noticed that the system had only 250 MB of swap space. After increasing that to 10 GB there have been no further instances of freezing so far.

wongarsu 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's unloved on Linux because using Linux under memory pressure sucks. But that's not a good reason to abandon improvements. Even more so with the direction RAM prices are headed

man8alexd 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It sucks without proper cgroup limits because swap makes OOM slower to trigger. Either set the cgroup limits or make the swap small.

ChocolateGod 14 hours ago | parent [-]

This requires additional setup from the user, the default setup should just "work".

man8alexd 14 hours ago | parent [-]

There are different definitions of "just work".

gf000 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It sucks for interactive use only. It could be solved in user space (see the other comment with cgroups), it just isn't.

SCdF 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You should still use swap. It's not "2x RAM" as advice anymore, and hasn't been for years: https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html

tl;dr; give it 4-8GB and forget about it.

ch_123 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I've heard "square root of physical memory" as a heuristic, although in practice I use less than this with some of my larger systems.

man8alexd 14 hours ago | parent [-]

The proper rule of thumb is to make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens.

boomlinde 13 hours ago | parent [-]

That's not so much a rule of thumb as an assessment you can only make after thorough experimentation or careful analysis.

NoGravitas 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It doesn't take that much experimentation, though. Either set up not enough swap and keep increasing it by a little bit until you stop needing to increase it, or set up too much, and monitor your max use for a while (days/weeks), and then decrease it to a little more than the max you used.

SAI_Peregrinus 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I went with "set up 0 swap" and then never needed to increase it. I built my PC in 2023, when RAM prices were still reasonable, stuck 128GiB of ECC DDR5 in, and haven't run into any need for swap. Start with 0, turn on zswap, and if you don't have enough RAM then make a swap file & set it up as backing for zswap.

man8alexd 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You don't need "horough experimentation or careful analysis". Just keep free swap space below few hundred megabytes but above zero.

boomlinde 13 hours ago | parent [-]

"Keep swap space below few hundred megabytes but above zero" is a good example of a rule of thumb.

"Make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens" is not.

NoGravitas 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even if you have plenty of memory for your work load, there are useful performance reasons for having some swap. The TLDR section of this link covers the important bits.

https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html

Relatively speaking, you do need a lot less swap than you did back in the day, but performance will suffer if you don't have some, and having too much doesn't cost you anything except storage.

sl-1 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is still useful for many workloads, I use it in work and on my own machines

krautsauer 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I rely on it heavily. Have you tried zram swap?