Okay, I'll accept your point for those software engineers that have a choice between working at an immoral company or "homelessness and starvation".

Thankfully, that isn't most of them. Despite the job market not being as good as it used to be, the vast majority of software engineers in the US could still find another job to pay the bills before becoming homeless and starving.

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surgical_fire 11 hours ago | parent [-]

If that's the case, great then. I did work for a company I find morally objectionable in the past (i.e.: evil), and I eventually found my way out.

At the time I was still paying rent and needed employment to keep my visa. I also had little savings, and an ill parent that depended on me. I certainly couldn't take the principled stance of "fuck this, I'm out".

My point is that if you are in the position to take a principled stance, good for you. Maybe you already own your home, maybe you had time to accumulate savings, maybe you can do a few interviews and land a less evil job even in the current market (and perhaps a pay cut won't be a massive blow in you life). All that is awesome, but also a position of relative privilege.

Prescribing principled stance as universal without recognizing this is just cruelty though.

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Kim_Bruning 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I sympathize with your situation, and I'm not calling you a monster. But "I had no choice, I had people depending on me" is the exact reasoning that has enabled every atrocity carried out by ordinary people; it's the banality of evil.

None of the individual acts seem evil. Conducting a census isn't evil. Collating the data isn't evil. Arresting people with the wrong papers isn't necessarily evil. Driving a train isn't evil. Operating a switch isn't evil. Processing paperwork isn't evil.

Look what's proposed now: Adtech has the data, this would feed into ICE systems leading to arrests, flights are conducted, and people get put into prison camps like CECOT where they have no recourse and where people are already talking about forced labor.

So no, I'm not saying to these folks "you're literally causing Auschwitz". That's a famous Vernichtungslager, and that's not true yet.

But people getting locked up in Concentrationslager or Arbeitslager (like historically : Mittelbau-Dora, Flossenbürg, Mauthausen, and Monowitz). I think we're getting there.

I guess the question is: at which point do you decide maybe to wear extra layers or skip a meal instead? We're not there yet. The chain has many links. Eternal vigilance is needed to make sure they don't actually link up.

(ps. Imagine if I was posting this in 2024! Can I exchange this timeline for another please? )

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jacquesm 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> That's a famous Vernichtungslager, and that's not true yet.

But it may well become true soon.

	▲	Kim_Bruning 9 hours ago \| parent [-]
		https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46897620 From the angle of your 2015 post, I can at least see where you're coming from. Modern adtech is much more granular and up to date than a census ever was. And hopefully the worst case can be prevented.

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surgical_fire 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I understand quite well. The banality of evil is a thing because most people have actual very little power to enact meaningful change. Risking yourself for the well being of complete strangers is commendable, but often has an obscene cost for the individual.

I reject that societal and systemic issues can be fixed by individual action, unless as an individual you are extremely powerful (and the ones that are typically are the ones causing the societal and systemic harm).

As an common man you can do small things. Do a lousy job when processing the paperwork of evil. Malicious cooperation to the powers that be. Small acts of charity. That sort of thing.

Systemic change can only be achieved through collective action. Easier said than done.

The world is cursed. Life is tough even at the best of times. The system as it is ensures compliance through coercion and threats.

I honestly believe we would agree more than disagree on the current state of things. I just reject the approach that individual action is a way out of this sort of mess.

	▲	Kim_Bruning 9 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		My father keeps asking me why I don't I ever apply to $BIGCO and earn more money. I certainly have the ability, he says. But I ask him, "But would you work for Lex Luthor?" He doesn't have a good comeback to that. Anyway, I (mostly, hopefully) try to make my small corner of the world a happy place. And I hope everyone else does for theirs.
	▲	computerthings 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
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