| ▲ | teo_zero 8 hours ago |
| > how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't think you should be able to do that so they throw a little money to the right politician At least 25 years. That's the time passed since the first introduction of Eurion marks on banknotes. As far as I know, noone has used it to block reproduction of anything other than money. |
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| ▲ | jrockway 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| When I was in college I wrote a computer program (yes, involving yellow text) that couldn't be photocopied because I put the "o"s in the right place to trigger the eurion-finding algorithm. People thought it was neat. |
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| ▲ | AlOwain 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That isn't true though, coupons, boarding passes, and even confidential documents use Eurion marks. It's not everywhere because it isn't worthwhile going through the hassle of getting printers that can print them; while 3D printing OEM parts would be much more valuable. |
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| ▲ | klausa 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Who issues Eurion-marked boarding passes? That strikes me as extremely counterproductive given the actually sensitive part of a BP is an (outside of the US) unsigned, semi-publicly-documented barcode. | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | JasonADrury 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Lots non-currency of documents around the world with EURion marks. If you're a secure printing shop and your business model primarily revolves around impressing your clients with long lists of document security features, it'd be malpractice to not implement this kind of padding. |
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| ▲ | Arch-TK 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| EURion marks are a feature you must include on your banknote for it to even be considered real. And it's _one_ feature. It's relatively trivial to make a chip which can detect their presence. On the other hand, if I need a replacement part for something, it's unlikely I will find the manufacturer giving me models for it. And if a manufacturer is giving me models for it, they probably do so with the explicit expectation that I might end up using them to manufacture a replacement. In most cases either me or some other volunteer will need to measure the existing part, write down all the critical measurements, and then design a new part from scratch in CAD. Even if somehow you are able to fingerprint on those critical measurements, that's just _one_ part. The only way this kind of nonsense law could work is if you mandate that 3D printers must not accept commands from an untrusted source (signature verification) and then you must have software which uses a database to check for such critical measurements, ideally _before_ slicing. Except that still doesn't work because I can always post-process a part to fit. And it doesn't work even more because the software will need to contain a signing key. Unless the signing key is on a remote server somewhere to which you must send your model for validation. This is never going to work, or scale. There are even more hurdles... I can design and build a 3D printer from scratch and manufacture it using non-CNC machined parts at home. A working, high quality 3D printer. Where are you going to force me to put the locks? Are you going to require me to show my ID when buying stepper motors and stepper motor drivers? What about other kinds of manufacturing (that these laws, at least the Washington State ones, also cover)? Will you ban old hardware? What about a milling machine? Are you going to ban non-CNC mills? These are the most ignorant laws made by the most ignorant people. The easiest way to ban people from manufacturing their own guns is to ban manufacture of your own guns. But again, this is a complete non-issue in the US where you can probably get a gun illegally more easily than you can 3D print something half as reliable. |
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| ▲ | anthk 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | As an European I'd say any USAnite can almost get a gun with breakfast cereal boxes. But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over. Pretty sure those 50 thousand or so civilians killed on the street in the recent Iranian protests/riots would have been a lot less, if all those Iranians had easy access to guns, and not just the government. Drones are not enough, you still need boots on the ground for you to claim control over a territory, and boots on the ground think twice about signing up for service if that includes facing armed mobs with guns on a daily basis. So no, mobs with guns are not obsolete. | | |
| ▲ | anthk 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Mob with guns would be useless against the Iranian Guards which are pretty much elite commandos. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Goat herders with guns in Afghanistan kicked the U.S. army out of their country. | | |
| ▲ | Edman274 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Afghanistan is a landlocked country on the other side of the planet, the soldiers didn't grow up with knowledge of the terrain, they had no knowledge of the language, culture, customs or social networks, no one locally (with few exceptions) wanted them there, and crucially they only lost once they left, and when they left, there were no penalties for the people who started the war; no US politicians were in any danger whether the war was won or lost, no land was lost, and no truly important geopolitical goals failed. On the flip side in any domestic insurrection, the soldiers know the terrain, language, customs and culture of the people, the supply lines are nothing (rather than having to airlift materiel and people thousands of miles, you drive them on regular roads), the infrastructure supports espionage, most people support the regime and will collaborate to return to stability (since they voted for it), the regime never leaves (you can leave Afghanistan, you can't leave your own country or it ceases to be a country), and if you lose, you lose territory and/or politicians run the risk of violence. The stakes are why these comparisons are never relevant. | |
| ▲ | sidewndr46 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn't really accurate. The Northern Alliance entered into an agreement with the US to secure the country. An insurgency sprang up and we fought it for 20 years before giving up. Since this is now after the fact, we can safely say the Taliban ran the insurgency the whole time. The Taliban are a military and political group compromised of an ethnic minority in Afghanistan. It's not even that the US lost to "goat herders with guns". We failed to secure a small country against a well organized, armed minority. | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To be fair, those "goat herders" were previously trained and armed by the US to fight Russian forces, so it's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Pretty sure Iranians with 3D printed guns would not be able to kick their own army out of Iran. | |
| ▲ | pegasus 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But could they do the same to goat herders with bigger guns, drones, bombs, etc? |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What's the commando to civilian ratio in Iran? | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Let's do some napkin math: Iran has about 94 million people. Iran's IRGC alone has a personnel count of 125.000 [1], of which about 2-5000 are estimated to be the elite of the elite ("Quds Force"). Together with the Basij (anywhere from 100-600k) that alone is a sufficient amount of force. And on top of that come maybe 400-500k of the regular Iranian Armed Forces [2], as well as about 260k active police+100k police reservists. So, if one sees the whole of IRGC plus Basij as the "commandos", they alone form an active elite of about 0.5%, if one sees the entirety of the military+police we're looking at easily 2-3 million units, so up to 2%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Co... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Armed... |
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| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not obsolete. In a country where your military is farm boys, the important thing is being able to start the war. Eventually chunks of the military will defect. We saw this happen during the Bangladesh independence movement. The revolutionaries got lucky and knocked over a weapons depot early in the conflict. They started fighting and a large number of the Pakistani army that was of Bangladeshi ancestry defected. I am confident the same thing would happen if the government in DC tried to oppress Iowa or Texas. Drones cut both ways. You’re correct that it allows a small number of people loyal to the regime to asymmetrically oppress a large population. But drone technology is in theory accessible to the populace in an industrialized country. | |
| ▲ | riskable 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, at birth every American is issued Baby's First Glock™ | |
| ▲ | pocksuppet 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those drones lost some wars against guerilla militias | |
| ▲ | lenerdenator 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | 1) That's a mischaracterization of the FFL purchase process if I've ever heard one. 2) The weapons culture of the US is so obsolete that there are government officials parroting lines about it not being legal to carry a concealed weapon during a protest in Minnesota when it is, actually, very much legal. That is to say, it's not obsolete at all. Given the prior public stances of the Trump administration on firearms, this is incredibly telling, and all the more reason why you can't trust people like them. |
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| ▲ | ale42 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Actually I tried to use it just for fun on some vouchers, but it didn't work on the copy machines I tried. They just happily photocopied the vouchers. |
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| ▲ | krater23 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Tried the same, doesn't do anything on my scanner. Interestingly, there are regions of banknotes my scanner refuses to scan. But had no time to investigate further. | | |
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| ▲ | rustyhancock 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is this true? Couldn't I put the mark on a page of my book and photocopiers would still detect and refuse to copy that page? |
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| ▲ | ErroneousBosh 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, absolutely. It's a pattern of five rings, well-documented although Omron appears to keep the exact details pretty tightly held. They don't have to be exact circles, they just have to be some dots in about the right place. In the UK, the Bank of England issued notes with Elgar on them and the EURion constellation picked out in musical notes ;-) |
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| ▲ | tobyjsullivan 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| No idea why this comment is getting downvoted so hard. This was exactly what I thought of too, and it provides a concrete answer to the question. There’s valid concern with these types of laws and scope creep. But there’s also precedent which shows they can work and be applied reasonably. |