| ▲ | elamje 13 hours ago |
| I was talking to someone about this the other day. I was part of a team at NASA that developed a cooling system for the ISS and this whole premise makes no sense to me. 1. Getting things to space is incredibly expensive 2. Ingress/egress are almost always a major bottleneck - how is bandwidth cheaper in space? 3. Chips must be “Rad-hard” - that is do more error correcting from ionizing radiation - there were entire teams at NASA dedicated to special hardware for this. 4. Gravity and atmospheric pressure actually do wonders for easy cooling. Heat is not dissipated in space like we are all used to and you must burn additional energy trying to move the heat generated away from source. 5. Energy production will be cheaper from earth due to mass manufacturing of necessary components in energy systems - space energy systems need novel technology where economies of scale are lost. Would love for someone to make the case for why it actually makes total sense, because it’s really hard to see for me! |
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| ▲ | mike_hearn 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It sounds hard but it shouldn't not make sense. 1. Solving cost of launching mass has been the entire premise of SpaceX since day one and they have the track record. 2. Ingress/egress aren't at all bottlenecks for inferencing. The bytes you get before you max out a context window are trivial, especially after compression. If you're thinking about latency, chat latencies are already quite high and there's going to be plenty of non-latency sensitive workloads in future (think coding agents left running for hours on their own inside sandboxes). 3. This could be an issue, but inferencing can be tolerant to errors as it's already non-deterministic and models can 'recover' from bad tokens if there aren't too many of them. If you do immersion cooling then the coolant will protect the chips from radiation as well. 4. There is probably plenty of scope to optimize space radiators. It was never a priority until now and is "just" an engineering problem. 5. What mass manufacture? Energy production for AI datacenters is currently bottlenecked on Siemens and others refusing to ramp up production of combined cycle gas turbines. They're converting old jet engines into power plants to work around this bottleneck. Ground solar is simply not being considered by anyone in the industry because even at AI spending levels they can't store enough power in batteries to ride out the night or low power cloudy days. That's not an issue in space where the huge amount of Chinese PV overproduction can be used 24/7. |
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| ▲ | haspok 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is probably plenty of scope to optimize space radiators. It was never a priority until now and is "just" an engineering problem. It's a physics problem, as others pointed out, but even if we take it as another "just an engineering problem", have a look at the Hyperloop. Which is similarly just a long vacuum tube, and inside is like an air hockey table, not that big a deal, right?... | |
| ▲ | FranklinJabar 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > There is probably plenty of scope to optimize space radiators. It was never a priority until now and is "just" an engineering problem. Well, it's a physics problem. The engineering solution is possibly not cost efficient. I'd put a lot of money that it isn't. | | |
| ▲ | bborud 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That bit reminded me of someone who wanted us to design a patch the size of a small postage stamp, at most 0.2mm thick, so you could stick on products. It was to deliver power for two years of operation, run an LTE modem, a GNSS receiver, an MCU, temperature and humidity sensor and would cost $0.10. And it would send back telemetry twice per day. | | |
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| ▲ | monooso 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have no expertise is this area, so I'm not getting into whether or not this idea makes sense. That being said, this statement strikes me as missing the point: > Solving cost of launching mass has been the entire premise of SpaceX since day one and they have the track record. As I understand it, SpaceX has a good track record of putting things into space more cost effectively than other organisations that put things into space. That is not the benchmark here. It doesn't matter if Musk can run thousands of data centres in space more cost effectively than (for example) NASA could. It matters whether he can do it more cost effectively than running them on earth. | | |
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| ▲ | energy123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > 5. Energy production will be cheaper from earth Sun-synchronous orbit means solar panels collect the same amount 24/7. I guess that's the #1 benefit. Cheap energy. |
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| ▲ | donkey_brains an hour ago | parent [-] | | Read the whole sentence. He’s talking about the cost to make solar panels that can be deployed in space, not the efficacy of said panels. |
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| ▲ | TheDong 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Would love for someone to make the case for why it actually makes total sense, because it’s really hard to see for me! Elon musk has a history of making improbable-sounding promises (buy a tesla now, by 2018 it will be a self-driving robotaxi earning money while you sleep, humanoid robots, hyperloops). The majority of these promises have sounded cool enough to enough people that the stock associated with him (TSLA) has made people literal millionaires just by holding onto the stock, and more and more people have bought in and thus have a financial interest in Musk's ventures being seen in a good light (since TSLA stock does not go up or down based on tesla's performance, it goes up or down based on the vibes of elon musk. It is not a car company stock, it is an elon vibes check). The thing he's saying now pattern matches to be pretty similar, and so given Musk's goal is to gain money, and he gains money by TSLA and SpaceX stock going up, this makes perfect sense as a thing to say and even make minor motions towards in order to make him richer. People will support it too since it pattern matches with the thing prior TSLA holders got rich off of, and so people will want to keep the musk vibes high so that their own $tsla holdings go to the moon. Make sense now? |
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| ▲ | adastra22 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The story here is even simpler. SpaceX is going public this year. Elon made a monumentally shitty investment in Twitter and then poured a stupid amount of money into xAI at the peak of the cycle. By having SpaceX buy xAI, he gets to swap worthless shares in that company for more SpaceX liquidity. Simple as that. | | |
| ▲ | mmustapic 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Exactly, and there needs to be some economic justification for a giant rocket. There is no money to be made by going to Mars, and AI data centers in space could attract investors (who are just riding the data center hype). | | |
| ▲ | fsloth 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I data centers in space could attract investors (who are just riding the data center hype). I find this to be the most obvious game plan here. Makes total sense from financial engineering point of view. You _might_ get to develop nice tech/IP to enable other space based businesses at the same time. "we sold them on X but delivered Y". So it's a bit of a hail mary, but makes total sense to me if you want to have a large budget for inventing the future. Once you can demonstrate even a fraction of this capability of operations ... I think you can sell a "space dominance" offering to Pentagon for example and just keep pedaling. "We are going to build the perfect weapon" does not necessarily entice as large engineer population as "we are going to Star Trek". Another thing - if Moon is going to be a thing, then _properties on Moon_ are going to be a thing. In theories of value in post-ai societies scarce assets like land are going to become more valuable. So it's a long term plan that makes sense if you believe Moon will be a realestate market. |
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| ▲ | rockemsockem 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Really seems silly to think that the guy with $800 billion is spending most of his time maximizing his money. | | |
| ▲ | jnsie an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Ah, this old fallacy. There are myriad examples of the rich striving to be richer and the powerful fighting to gain even more power. Why would it be any different with Musk? If anything I suspect (this is absolutely an unverifiable opinion; I am not stating it as fact) that Musk's driving force is to become the first trillionaire. | |
| ▲ | tyg13 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Doesn't it just make sense though? How else would he have gotten 800 billion dollars? | |
| ▲ | kadoban 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Welcome to billionares. If they weren't obsessed with "number go up" over any other consideration, they wouldn't be billionares. | | |
| ▲ | nosianu 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Billionaire money is not like money for the normal person. It is a placeholder for how much influence you have on the economy - and even the state. It is not just a number, as it is for people who just save a few dollars, for whom it really is just a number until they withdraw money to use it. The billionaire's money is not "money", it is actual working assets, and the abstraction of turning this into a number does a terrible job, the result now misunderstood by many. Assets being companies doing stuff mostly (holding non-control-giving paper assets is different and not what being a top capitalist is about, only used as an additional tool below the actual goal). Which they fully control (the small investor does not even have any control worth mentioning when they own shares of a public company). They don't just play with money, they play with real things! And they want to play with ever bigger real things. They don't just want to improve some minor product. They want to control the fate of civilization. OT: I hate this money view with a passion, this is what too many people discussing wealth inequality issues get wrong. This is not Scrooge McDuck and his money pile. Money is an abstraction, and it is misused terribly, hiding what is actually going on for too many observers who then go on to discuss "numbers". That is also why the idea to "just redistribute the money of the rich" is a failure. It isn't money! It is actual real complex organizations. And you can't just make everything into a public company, and also, even when they are, for better or worse owners don't lead like managers. Doing the socialism thing (I grew up in the GDR) where everybody owns a tiny bit of everything just does not work the same. We will have to look at what those super-rich are actually doing, case by individual case of ownership, not just look at some abstract numbers. Sometimes concentrated control over a lot of assets is a good thing, and other times it is not. Ignoring the objection of "who would control that?", because right now they control themselves so it's never nobody. |
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| ▲ | z3t4 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He probably have 700 billion in loans and need to pay rent | |
| ▲ | sixQuarks 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What’s silly is a bunch of so-called intelligent entrepreneurs and tech insiders twisting themselves into a pretzel coming up with reasons why this or that won’t work, by the guy who keeps doing the impossible | | |
| ▲ | turtlesdown11 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > by the guy who keeps doing the impossible What exactly has Elon done that's "impossible"? Like the Boring Company where he promised 1,000x faster boring? It turned into a mile or two of a poorly routed hole with some Teslas tossed down into it. He and his shills hand waved away the problem, confident their brilliance would allow them to dig 1,000x faster than modern commercial boring. It never happened. The only impossible thing Elon has done is make fantasy claims and real people fall for it. | | |
| ▲ | stevage an hour ago | parent [-] | | I will definitely credit Elon with building a company that made reusable self-landing rockets seem routine and boring. That was definitely "impossible". Pretty much everything else though is just vapourware. |
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| ▲ | randomNumber7 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, but landing a rocket backwards also sounded very improbable to me, yet it looks pretty cool now. Also people made fun of tesla that it will never be able to compete with the big carmakers. Now I would rather have some stocks in tesla than holding on to volkswagen. | | |
| ▲ | thephyber 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn’t be so sure about Tesla stock. Tesla has only weathered 1 market downturn cycle and that was when it was a very different company. The company has thus far had access to plentiful capital since the Model S started being delivered. Famous investors like to repeat the quote that “when the tide goes out, that’s when we find out who’s wearing no pants.” When Tesla actually weathers its first market downturn is when we find out how much investors interest is maintained When investment dollars are scarce. |
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| ▲ | sixQuarks 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh no! He promised my car would be self driving in 2018 but it took until 2026 before that was true. How dare he not have accurately predicted when one of the hardest technical problems in history is solved? |
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| ▲ | kortilla 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Ingress/egress are almost always a major bottleneck - how is bandwidth cheaper in space? Free space optics are much faster than data to/from the ground. If the training workloads only require high bandwidth between sats, this isn’t a real issue. |
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| ▲ | philipwhiuk 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Chips must be “Rad-hard” - that is do more error correcting from ionizing radiation - there were entire teams at NASA dedicated to special hardware for this. They don't do RAD hardening on chips these days, they just accept error and use redundant CPUs. |
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| ▲ | numpad0 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are apparently rad-hard DDR4 chips these days so this is patently false. SpaceX used to talk a lot about substituting rad-hard components with triple redundant regular x86 years ago, that's true. I think I've also seen someone mention that the cost and power benefit of substituting rad-hard chips with garden variety wean off fast once the level of redundancy goes up, and also it can't handle deep space radiations that just kill Earthbound chips rather than partially glitching them. | |
| ▲ | adastra22 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You are confidently incorrect. Even Starlink uses rad-hardened CPUs. Redundant error correction is only really an option on launch hardware that only spends minutes in space. Note that on modern hardware cosmic rays permanently disable circuits, not mere bitflips. | | |
| ▲ | NitpickLawyer 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You are confidently incorrect. No, he's not. Dragon is using CotS, non rad-hardened CPUs. And it's rated to carry humans to space. > AWST: So, NASA does not require SpaceX to use radiation-hardened computer systems on the Dragon? John Muratore: No, as a matter of fact NASA doesn't require it on their own systems, either. I spent 30 years at NASA and in the Air Force doing this kind of work. My last job was chief engineer of the shuttle program at NASA, and before that as shuttle flight director. I managed flight programs and built the mission control center that we use there today. On the space station, some areas are using rad-hardened parts and other parts use COTS parts. Most of the control of the space station occurs through laptop computers which are not radiation hardened. > Q: So, these flight computers on Dragon – there are three on board, and that's for redundancy? A: There are actually six computers. They operate in pairs, so there are three computer units, each of which have two computers checking on each other. The reason we have three is when operating in proximity of ISS, we have to always have two computer strings voting on something on critical actions. We have three so we can tolerate a failure and still have two voting on each other. And that has nothing to do with radiation, that has to do with ensuring that we're safe when we're flying our vehicle in the proximity of the space station. I went into the lab earlier today, and we have 18 different processing units with computers in them. We have three main computers, but 18 units that have a computer of some kind, and all of them are triple computers – everything is three processors. So we have like 54 processors on the spacecraft. It's a highly distributed design and very fault-tolerant and very robust. [1] - https://aviationweek.com/dragons-radiation-tolerant-design | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Dragon is using CotS, non rad-hardened CPUs. And it's rated to carry humans to space. Those are not independent facts. They put the hardware inside, behind the radiation shielding they use to keep the astronauts safe. It's why regular old IBM laptops work on the Space Station too. That kind of shielding is going to blow your mass budget if you use it on these satellites. SpaceX, which prefers COTS components when it can use them, still went with AMD Versal chips for Starlink. Because that kind of high performance, small process node hardware doesn't last long in space otherwise (phone SoC-based cubesats in LEO never lasted more than a year, and often only a month or so). | | |
| ▲ | NitpickLawyer 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They put the hardware inside, Which is exactly how you'd do a hypothetical dc in space. Come on, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. CotS works. This is not an issue. > That kind of shielding is going to blow your mass budget SpX is already leading in upmass by a large margin. Starship improves mass to orbit. Again, this is a "solved" issue. There are other problems in building space DCs. Rad hardening is not one of them. AI training is so fault tolerant already that this was never an issue. | | |
| ▲ | notrealyme123 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > AI training is so fault tolerant already that this was never an issue. Such nonsense. | | |
| ▲ | NitpickLawyer 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Between fp nondeterminism, fp arithmetic, async gradient updates, cuda nondeterminism, random network issues, random nodes failing and so on, bitflip is the last of your concerns. SGD is very robust on noise. That's why it works with such noisy data, pipelines, compute and so on. Come on! This thread is having people find the most weird hills to die on, while being completely off base. |
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| ▲ | danparsonson 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Carrying humans to space is not the same use case as spending long periods of time in orbit. | | |
| ▲ | NitpickLawyer 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Dragon spends 6mo+ in orbit regularly. I have no idea what's happening in this thread, but it seems everyone is going insane. People don't even know what they're talking about, but they keep on bringing bad arguments. I'm out. |
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| ▲ | elamje 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Where did you hear this? |
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| ▲ | greengrassi 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| When they talk about "space" they are, right now, talking about the moon. Which has some gravity. They are putting the data centers on the moon. And the satellites are lunar satellites not earth-orbit satellites. Lonestar physical data center payload landed on the moon in Feb 2025 and Sidus space developing the lunar satellites. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | They are not. xAI/SpaceX is talking about millions of satellites in sun-synchronous orbit. | | |
| ▲ | nosianu 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, the cost of doing it on the moon would be even more astronomical. Then there also is the three second of round-trip latency to consider (ca. 2.6 s just the signal, but processing adds a bit more). |
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