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SilverElfin 7 hours ago

Surprised the EU hasn’t banned it yet given that the platform is manipulated by Musk to destabilize Europe and move it towards the far right. The child abuse feels like a smaller problem compared to that risk.

Bender 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In my opinion I think the reason they raided the offices for CSAM would be there are laws on the books for CSAM and not for social manipulation. If people could be jailed for manipulation there would be no social media platforms, lobbyists, political campaign groups or advertisements. People are already being manipulated by AI.

On a related note given AI is just a tool and requires someone to tell it to make CSAM I think they will have to prove intent possibly by grabbing chat logs, emails and other internal communications but I know very little about French law or international law.

caminante 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's broader and mentioned in the article:

>French authorities opened their investigation after reports from a French lawmaker alleging that biased algorithms on X likely distorted the functioning of an automated data processing system. It expanded after Grok generated posts that allegedly denied the Holocaust, a crime in France, and spread sexually explicit deepfakes, the statement said.

trcarney 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

hold on, are you saying that you should be able to be jailed for manipulation? Where would that end? could i be jailed if i post a review for a restaurant if you feel it manipulated you? or anyone stating an opinion could be construed as manipulation. that is beyond a slippery slope, that is an authoritarian nightmare.

gf000 an hour ago | parent [-]

So you think writing a review is somehow on the same magnitude as social media platforms with 300 million-3 billion users?

And how is that different from TV channels/media en large having laws to abide by? Slippery slope arguments are themselves slippery slopes..

FireBeyond 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I had to make a choice to not even use Grok (I wasn't overly interested in the first place, but wanted to review how it might compare to the other tools), because even just the Explore option shows photos and videos of CSAM, CSAM-adjacent, and other "problematic" things in a photorealistic manner (such as implied bestiality).

Looking at the prompts below some of those image shows that even now, there's almost zero effort at Grok to filter prompts that are blatantly looking to create problematic material. People aren't being sneaky and smart and wordsmithing subtle cues to try to bypass content filtering, they're often saying "create this" bluntly and directly, and Grok is happily obliging.

SilverElfin 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Given America passed PAFACA (intended to ban TikTok, which Trump instead put in hands of his friends), I would think Europe would also have a similar law. Is that not the case?

Bender 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you talking about this [1]? I don't know the answer to your question whether or not the EU has the same policy. That is talking about control by a foreign adversary.

I think that would delve into whether or not the USA would be considered a foreign adversary to France. I was under the impression we were allies since like the 1800s or so despite some little tiffs now and again.

[1] - https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521

direwolf20 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

EngineerUSA needs to vastly change his tone to avoid being flagged. I vouched it because it's broadly true but the wording could be a LOT better.

EngineerUSA 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

Uhhrrr 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Manipulated by Musk to destabilize Europe and move it towards the far right" - this is a very strong claim to make about a fairly open platform where people can choose what to post and who to follow.

Also, could you clarify what the difference is between the near right and the far right? Do you have any examples of the near right?

latexr 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> fairly open platform where people can choose what to post and who to follow.

It is well known Musk amplifies his own speech and the words of those he agrees with on the platform, while banning those he doesn’t like.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/15/elon-m...

> could you clarify what the difference is between the near right and the far right?

It’s called far-right because it’s further to the right (starting from the centre) than the right. Wikipedia is your friend, it offers plenty of examples and even helpfully lays out the full spectrum in a way even a five year old with a developmental impairment could understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

Uhhrrr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

antiframe an hour ago | parent [-]

I was surprised by your claim that Wikipedia would categorize mild restrictions on immigration as an element of far-right politics, so I read that article to see it for myself. I didn't see anything about mild restrictions. Would you care to point out where you saw that?

Uhhrrr an hour ago | parent [-]

It calls National Rally in France "far right".

antiframe an hour ago | parent [-]

Well, far right is a spectrum, obviously. But a party that equates immigration of a particular religion as terrorism is not "mild immigration restrictions" in my reading.

I cross-checked Wikipedia's information with another source: https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/french-election-is-it-c...

Uhhrrr 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don't know about that party, but National Rally doesn't say that, and also polls around 34% of French people. So it remains that the Wikipedia "far right" definition is a very wide spectrum.

10xDev 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is obviously diversion but anyway: Bunch of "American and European" "patriots" that he retweets 24/7 turned out to be people from Iran, Pakistan, India and Russia. These accounts generate likes by default by accounts with "wife of vet" in bio and generic old_blonde_women.jpeg aka bots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj38m11218xo

Uhhrrr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

So he retweets accounts which get likes, and this destabilizes Europe... how?

gyudin 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People having different opinions other than globalists elites is destabilizing to their reign :))

preisschild an hour ago | parent [-]

You meant to write "Literal russian state-sponsored bots"

nemo44x 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They can’t fathom that their opinions are unpopular and probably wrong.

rienbdj 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Elon fiddles with the algorithm to boost certain accounts. Some accounts are behind an auth wall and others are not. It’s open but not even.

Uhhrrr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

And this destabilizes Europe... how?

aucisson_masque 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's pretty obvious, media is called the 4th power.

Control the media, you control the information that a significant part of Europeans get. Elections aren't won by 50%, you only need to convince 4 or 5% of the population that the far right is great.

sunaookami an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Schrödingers social network: It's somehow irrelevant but somehow "destablizies our democracy" ;)

gmd63 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It gives people who aren't aware of the bot accounts / thumb on the scale the perception that insane crackpot delusions are more popular than they are.

There is a reason Musk paid so much for Twitter. If this stuff had no effect he wouldn't have bought it.

936966931646863 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, european state media stould have the monopoly on spreading disinformation.

javascriptfan69 an hour ago | parent [-]

Social media should not allow algorithms to actively AMPLIFY disinformation to the public.

If people want to post disinformation that's fine, but the way that these companies push that information onto users is the problem. There either needs to be accountability for platforms or a ban on behavior driven content feeds.

People lying on the internet is fine. Social media algorithms amplifying the lie because it has high engagement is destroying our society.

javascriptfan69 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The same way that social media has destabilized the USA.

By exposing people to a flood of misinformation and politically radicalizing content designed to maximize engagement via emotion (usually anger).

Remember when Elon Musk alleged that he was going to find a trillion dollars (a year) in waste fraud and abuse with DOGE? Did he ever issue a correction on that statement after catastrophically failing to do so? Do you think that kind of messaging might damage the trust in our institutions?

bulbar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Did he ever issue a correction on that statement after catastrophically failing to do so?

To be 'fair', finding fraud never was the real purpose of DOGE, just some fake argument that enough citizen would find plausible.

verdverm 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> where people can choose

How true is this really?

We certainly have data points to show Musk has put his thumb on the scale

Uhhrrr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

verdverm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

While there may be some feeds on Xitter that are basic algorithms, (1) it's not the only one (2) there may still be less mechanical algorithmic choices within following (what order, what mix, how much) (3) evidence to the contrary exists, are you freeing yourself of facts?

I haven't dug into whatever they open sourced about the algorithm to make definitive statements. Regardless, there are many pieces out there where you can learn about the evidence for direct manipulation.

Uhhrrr 4 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

verdverm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> You can just go on the app yourself and verify this

That's not how science and statistics works. Comprehensive evidence and analysis is a search or chat bot away. The legal cases will go into the details as well, by nature of how legal proceedings work

Uhhrrr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

mcintyre1994 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In case you're not playing dumb, the term you're looking for would be centre right.

SilverElfin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Far right to me is advocating for things that discriminate based on protected traits like race, sex, etc. So if you’re advocating for “white culture” above others, that’s far right. If you’re advocating for the 19th amendment (women’s right to vote) to be repealed (as Nick Fuentes and similar influencers do), that’s also far right. Advocating for ICE to terrorize peaceful residents, violate constitutional rights, or outright execute people is also far right.

Near right to me is advocating for things like lower taxes or different regulations or a secure border (but without the deportation of millions who are already in the country and abiding by laws). Operating the government for those things while still respecting the law, upholding the constitution, defending civil rights, and avoiding the deeply unethical grifting and corruption the Trump administration has normalized.

Obviously this is very simplified. What are your definitions out of curiosity?

Uhhrrr 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think your definition is mostly fine, although deporting illegal immigrants is a moderate position, not near right.

And I would agree with the other reply that Musk is not far right by that definition.

phasnox 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

By your definition Musk is not far right.

> Avoiding the deeply unethical grifting and corruption the Trump administration has normalized.

Care to give examples of these?

SilverElfin 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/trumps-pr...

uep 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I hate to wade into this cesspool. How about some of the real obvious ones:

  * Crypto currency rug pulls (World Liberty Financial)
  * Donations linked with pardons (Binance)
  * Pardoning failed rebels of a coup that favored him (Capitol rioters)
  * Bringing baseless charges against political enemies and journalists (Comey, Letitia James, Don Lemon)
  * Musk (DOGE) killing government regulatory agencies that had investigations and cases against his companies
This is with two minutes of thought while waiting for a compile. I'm open to hearing how I am wrong.
causalscience 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

lm28469 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

ahmeneeroe-v2 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

de Gaulle would be considered insanely far right today. Many aspects of Bush (assuming GW here) would be considered not in line with America's far-right today.

Assume good intent. It helps you see the actually interesting point being made.

southerntofu 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> de Gaulle would be considered insanely far right today

As much as it pains me to say this, because i myself consider de Gaulle to be a fascist in many regards, that's far from a majority opinion (disclaimer: i'm an anarchist).

I think de Gaulle was a classic right-wing authoritarian ruler. He had to take some social measures (which some may view as left-wing) because the workers at the end of WWII were very organized and had dozens of thousands of rifles, so such was the price of social peace.

He was right-wing because he was rather conservative, for private property/entrepreneurship and strongly anti-communist. Still, he had strong national planning for the economy, much State support for private industry (Elf, Areva, etc) and strong policing on the streets (see also, Service d'Action Civique for de Gaulle's fascist militias with long ties with historical nazism and secret services).

That being said, de Gaulle to my knowledge was not really known for racist fear-mongering or hate speech. The genocides he took part in (eg. against Algerian people) were very quiet and the official story line was that there was no story. That's in comparison with far-right people who already at the time, and still today, build an image of the ENEMY towards whom all hate and violence is necessary. See also Umberto Eco's Ur-fascism for characteristics of fascist regimes.

In that sense, and it really pains me to write this, but de Gaulle was much less far-right than today's Parti Socialiste, pretending to be left wing despite ruling with right-wing anti-social measures and inciting hatred towards french muslims and binationals.

constantius 3 hours ago | parent [-]

While de Gaulle being far-right is not a majority opinion (except in some marginal circles), he would undoubtedly be considered far-right if he was governing today, which is what GP seems to have meant.

I think that, for most Western people today, far-right == bad to non-white people, independent of intention (as you demonstrated with your remark about the PS), so de Gaulle's approach to Algeria, whether he's loud about it or not, would qualify him as far-right already.

All this to say, the debate is based on differing definitions of far-right (for example you conflate fascism and far-right and use Eco, while GP and I seem to think it's about extremely authoritarian + capitalist), and has started from an ignorant comment by an idiot who considers Bush (someone who is responsible for the death of around a million Iraqis, the creation of actual torture camps, large-scale surveillance, etc.) not far-right because, I assume, he didn't say anything mean about African-Americans.

rkomorn 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They wrote "Bush was right wing" (unless it was edited), so what's your point in saying "Many aspects of Bush (assuming GW here) would be considered not in line with America's far-right today." ?

ahmeneeroe-v2 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Nope no stealth edit, my bad.

My point still stands, "politics change and assessments of politicians change accordingly".

Bill Clinton's crime bill would be considered far right today.

Ronald Regean's amnesty bill would be considered far left today.

southerntofu 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Even at the time Bill Clinton was already very much right-wing. When he was in power, he oversaw the destruction of public services and the introduction of neoliberalism. Is that not right-wing?

It's not just me saying this. Ask anyone who was politically active (as a leftist) in the 90s. I'm not sure what was the equivalent of the Democratic Socialists of America (center-left) at that time, but i'm sure there was an equivalent and Bill Clinton was much more right-wing. That's without mentioning actual left-wing parties (like communists, anarchists, black panthers etc).

5upplied_demand an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Even at the time Bill Clinton was already very much right-wing.

He raised taxes, lowered military spending, and pursued universal healthcare. Those are not, and have never been, right-wing stances in the US.

ahmeneeroe-v2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Is that not right-wing?

I don't think many self-described "right-leaning" people would have called Clinton "right wing" in the 90s.

I 100% see your point and agree with you that he had major policies that I would call right wing today.

throwaway132448 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bad assumptions are just another form of stupidity.

lm28469 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No one can assume good intent with such question, at best it's bait.

But then again people on this very forum will argue Sanders is a literal communist so we circle back to the sub 70iq problem

762236 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It used to be a principle of the left to believe in free speech. Now that is called right wing.

JohnTHaller 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

MAGA talks about free speech but doesn't believe in or practice it.

southerntofu 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Believing in free speech is neither left nor right, it's on the freedom/authority axis which is perpendicular. Most people on the left never advocated to legalize libel, defamation, racist campaigns, although the minority that did still do today.

The "free-speechism" of the past you mention was about speaking truth to power, and this movement still exists on the left today, see for example support for Julian Assange, arrested journalists in France or Turkey, or outright murdered in Palestine.

When Elon Musk took over Twitter and promised free speech, he very soon actually banned accounts he disagreed with, especially leftists. Why free speech may be more and more perceived as right wing is because despite having outright criminal speech with criminal consequences (such as inciting violence against harmless individuals such as Mark Bray), billionaires have weaponized propaganda on a scale never seen before with their ownership of all the major media outlets and social media platforms, arguing it's a matter of free speech.

throwaway132448 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There’s no such thing as free speech and there never has been. To believe there is, is to fundamentally fail to understand what a society even is.

q3k 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's no tool, technological or legal, to block/ban a website EU-wide.

IOT_Apprentice 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They will set their DNS servers to drop all incoming connections to X. That can be done in each country. They can use Deep Packet inspection tools and go from there. If the decision is EU wide then they will roll that out.

q3k 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

There is no law that would permit the EU to do this. This would be a huge thing to introduce and implement, probably a 2-3 year project, and would almost certainly be strongly opposed by multiple member countries.

fluoridation 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Deep packet inspection? What do you mean? Are you talking about domain name confiscation or building a Great Firewall of EU?

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
BrandoElFollito 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am not surprised at all. Independent of whether this is true, such a decision from the EU would never be acted upon. The number of layers between the one who says "ban it" somewhere in Bruissels and the operator blackholing the DNS and filtering traffic is decades.

bulbar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Why do you think that? It can take a few years for national laws bring in place, but that also depends on how much certain countries push it. Regarding Internet traffic I assume a few specific countries that route most of the traffic would be enough to stop operation for the most part.

BrandoElFollito 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Have you ever seen an actual EU-wide decision on such matters and an actual application?

The closest I can think of is GDPR which has its great aspects and also the cookies law (which is incorrectly interpreted). And some things like private IPs being PIIs which promotes nonsnsical "authorities notifications" that are not used afterwards.

We have consulting companies doing yearly audits on companies to close the books. And yet hacks happen all the time. Without consequences.

There is an ocean between what is announced and lives on paper vs. the reality of the application. If you work in compliance and cubersecurity you see this everyday.

sunshine-o 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Simply because if you were to ban this type of platform you wouldn't need Musk to "move it towards the far right" because you would already be the very definition of a totalitarian regime.

But whatever zombie government France is running can't "ban" X anyway because it would get them one step closer to the guillotine. Like in the UK or Germany it is a tinderbox cruising on a 10-20% approval rating.

If "French prosecutor" want to find a child abuse case they can check the Macron couple Wikipedia pages.

bulbar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What do you mean with "this type of platform"? Platforms that don't follow (any) national laws have been banned in multiple countries over the years.

By itself this isn't extraordinary in a democracy.

rvnx an hour ago | parent [-]

and France is known for filtering internet access where domains are blocked (over 4000 added per year), including porn, but also news websites

JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> if you were to ban this type of platform you wouldn't need Musk to "move it towards the far right" because you would already be the very definition of a totalitarian regime

Paradox of tolerance. (The American right being Exhibit A for why trying to let sunlight disinfect a corpse doesn’t work.)

blell 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Big platforms and media are only good if they try to move the populace to the progressive, neoliberal side. Otherwise we need to put their executives in jail.

lowkey_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The child abuse feels like a smaller problem compared to that risk.

I think we can and should all agree that child sexual abuse is a much larger and more serious problem than political leanings.

It's ironic as you're commenting about a social media platform, but I think it's frightening what social media has done to us with misinformation, vilification, and echo chambers, to think political leanings are worse than murder, rape, or child sexual abuse.

preisschild an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Those innocent "political leanings" get people killed. See the ICE killings in Minneapolis.

lingrush4 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In fairness, AI-generated CSAM is nowhere near as evil as real CSAM. The reason why possession of CSAM was such a serious crime is because its creation used to necessitate the abuse of a child.

It's pretty obvious the French are deliberately conflating the two to justify attacking a political dissident.

jjkaczor an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It may not be worse "objectively" and in direct harm.

However - it has one big problem that is rarely discussed... Normalizing of behaviour, interests and attitudes. It just becomes a thing that Grok can do - for paid accounts, and people think - ok, "no harm, no problem"... Long-term, there will be harm. This has been demonstrated over decades of investigation of CSAM.

lowkey_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Definitely agree on which is worse! To be clear, I'm not saying I agree with the French raid. Just that statements about severe crimes (child sexual abuse for the above poster - not AI-generated content) being "lesser problems" compared to politics is a concerning measure of how people are thinking.

direwolf20 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Almost like the EU can't just ban speech on a whim the way US far right people keep saying it can.

lingrush4 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

verdverm 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Why? Has Reddit given their users tools to generate CSAM and non-consensual sexualized imagery? Bluesky certainly hasn't

lingrush4 6 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

936966931646863 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]