| ▲ | layer8 2 hours ago |
| Labeling people as villains (as opposed to condemning acts), in particular those you don’t know personally, is almost always an unhelpful oversimplification of reality. It obscures the root causes of why the bad things are happening, and stands in the way of effective remedy. |
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| ▲ | mjburgess 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm not sure the problems we have at the moment are a lack of accountability. I mean, I think let's go a little overboard on holding people to account first, then wind it back when that happens. The crisis at the moment is mangeralism across all of our institutions which serves to displace accountability . |
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| ▲ | regenschutz 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As with anything, it's just highly subjective. What some call an heinous act is another person's heroic act. Likewise, where I draw the line between an unlucky person and a villain is going to be different from someone else. Personally, I do believe that there are benefits to labelling others as villains if a certain threshold is met. It cognitively reduces strain by allowing us to blanket-label all of their acts as evil [0] (although with the drawback of occasionally accidentally labelling acts of good as evil), allowing us to prioritise more important things in life than the actions of what we call villains. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect#The_reverse_halo_e... |
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| ▲ | rolymath an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would argue that villainy and "bad people" is an overcomplication of ignorance. If we equate being bad to being ignorant, then those people are ignorant/bad (with the implication that if people knew better, they wouldn't do bad things) I'm sure I'm over simplifying something, looking forward to reading responses. |
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| ▲ | andy99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just to add on, armchair quarterbacking is a thing, it’s easy in hindsight to label decisions as the result of bad intentions. This is completely different than whatever might have been at play in the moment and retrospective judgement is often unrealistic. |
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| ▲ | lo_zamoyski an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s possible to take two opposing and flawed views here, of course. On the one hand, it is possible to become judgmental, habitually jumping to unwarranted and even unfair conclusions about the moral character of another person. On the other, we can habitually externalize the “root causes” instead of recognizing the vice and bad choices of the other. The latter (externalization) is obvious when people habitually blame “systems” to rationalize misbehavior. This is the same logic that underpins the fantastically silly and flawed belief that under the “right system”, misbehavior would simply evaporate and utopia would be achieved. Sure, pathological systems can create perverse incentives, even ones that put extraordinary pressure on people, but moral character is not just some deterministic mechanical response to incentive. Murder doesn’t become okay because you had a “hard life”, for example. And even under “perfect conditions”, people would misbehave. In fact, they may even misbehave more in certain ways (think of the pathologies characteristic of the materially prosperous first world). So, yes, we ought to condemn acts, we ought to be charitable, but we should also recognize human vice and the need for justice. Justly determined responsibility should affect someone’s reputation. In some cases, it would even be harmful to society not to harm the reputations of certain people. |
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| ▲ | josfredo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The person is inseparable from the root cause. |
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| ▲ | saikia81 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm guessing you believe that a person is always completely responsible for their actions. If you are doing root cause analysis you will get nowhere with that attitude. | | |
| ▲ | stogot 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | In the case of software RCA, but if a crime is committed then many times there is a victim. There could be some root cause, but ignoring the crime creates a new problem for the victim (justice) Both can be pursued without immediately jumping to defending a crime |
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| ▲ | jcattle an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In that case let's just shut down the FAA and any accident investigations. It's not processes that can be fixed, it's just humans being stupid. | |
| ▲ | squibonpig an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then "root cause" means basically nothing |
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| ▲ | jbreckmckye an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Labeling people as villains is almost always an unhelpful oversimplification of reality This is effectively denying the existence of bad actors. We can introspect into the exact motives behind bad behaviour once the paper is retracted. Until then, there is ongoing harm to public science. |
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| ▲ | egeozcan an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | IMHO, you should deal with actual events, when not ideas, instead of people. No two people share the exact same values. For example, you assume that guy trying to cut the line is a horrible person and a megalomaniac because you've seen this like a thousand times. He really may be that, or maybe he's having an extraordinarily stressful day, or maybe he's just not integrated with the values of your society ("cutting the line is bad, no matter what") or anything else BUT none of all that really helps you think clearly. You just get angry and maybe raise your voice when you're warning him, because "you know" he won't understand otherwise. So you left your values now too because you are busy fighting a stereotype. IMHO, correct course of action is assuming good faith even with bad actions, and even with persistent bad actions, and thinking about the productive things you can do to change the outcome, or decide that you cannot do anything. You can perhaps warn the guy, and then if he ignores you, you can even go to security or pick another hill to die on. I'm not saying that I can do this myself. I fail a lot, especially when driving. It doesn't mean I'm not working on it. | | |
| ▲ | Levitz 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I used to think like this, and it does seem morally sound at first glance, but it has the big underlying problem of creating an excellent context in which to be a selfish asshole. Turns out that calling someone on their bullshit can be a perfectly productive thing to do, it not only deals with that specific incident, but also promotes a culture in which it's fine to keep each other accountable. | |
| ▲ | jbreckmckye 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I honestly think this would qualify as "ruinous empathy" It's fine and even good to assume good faith, extend your understanding, and listen to the reasons someone has done harm - in a context where the problem was already redressed and the wrongdoer is labelled. This is not that. This is someone publishing a false paper, deceiving multiple rounds of reviewers, manipulating evidence, knowingly and for personal gain. And they still haven't faced any consequences for it. I don't really know how to bridge the moral gap with this sort of viewpoint, honestly. It's like you're telling me to sympathise with the arsonist whilst he's still running around with gasoline |
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| ▲ | smt88 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think they're actually just saying bad actors are inevitable, inconsistent, and hard to identify ahead of time, so it's useless to be a scold when instead you can think of how to build systems that are more resilient to bad acts | | |
| ▲ | mike_hearn 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You have to do both. Offense and defense are closely related. You can make it hard to engage in bad acts, but if there are no penalties for doing so or trying to do so, then that means there are no penalties for someone just trying over and over until they find a way around the systems. Academics that refuse to reply to people trying to replicate their work need to be instantly and publicly fired, tenure or no. This isn't going to happen, so the right thing to do is for the vast majority of practitioners to just ignore academia whilst politically campaigning for the zeroing of government research grants. The system is unsaveable. | |
| ▲ | jbreckmckye an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | To which my reply would be, we can engage in the analysis after we have taken down the paper. It's still up! Maybe the answer to building a resilient system lies in why it is still up. |
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| ▲ | circus1540 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What if the root cause is that because we stopped labeling villains, they no longer fear being labeled as such. The consequences for the average lying academic have never been lower (in fact they usually don’t get caught and benefit from their lie). |
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| ▲ | tomtomtom777 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are we living on the same planet? Surely the public discourse over the past decades has been steadily moving from substantive towards labeling each other villains, not the other way around. | | |
| ▲ | Levitz 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | But that kind of labeling happens because of having the wrong political stances, not because of the moral character of the person. | |
| ▲ | bethekidyouwant 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | For activist, politicians scientists, civilians? be specific |
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| ▲ | hexbin010 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I'm not a bad person, I just continuously do bad things, none of which is my fault - there is always a deeper root cause \o/ |
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| ▲ | Ygg2 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | On the flip side, even if you punish the villain, garbage papers still get printed. Almost like there is a root cause. Both views are maximalistic. | | |
| ▲ | bavell 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | On the flop side, maybe there wouldn't be as many garbage papers printed if there were any actual negative consequences. It's not so simple as you make it out to be. |
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