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superdisk 10 hours ago

I sometimes daydream about becoming a billionaire and bankrolling this project to completion. Would do the world so much good.

sho_hn 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I still think Windows app compat for Linux (i.e. as Wine does and Valve productized with a gaming focus) is the better solution since it offers a true upgrade path out.

I realize ReactOS has a potentially wider useful scope (I think device driver compat is part of what they're attempting to do, so it'd offer a solution to keeping niche HW running) but I think it's just a smaller audience.

mghackerlady 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Has anyone thought about making the linux kernel roughly compatible with NT? Like how FreeBSD is compatible with Linux? I know it'd definitely be harder as NT is proprietary but syscalls (in my very uninformed opinion) seem all that difficult to implement, even without a userland

augusto-moura 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At what level do you mean that? Kernel level? Driver level?

Wine[1] is the de facto compatibility layer with NT executables. Driver compatibility is too complex and obscure to worth the while. Often information is undocumented or hard to get.

There are a few implementations of windows behaviors at kernel level for a few subsystems features, ntsync, samba, ntfs, etc. they can be used by wine to improve compatibility or performance

[1]: https://www.winehq.org/

treyd 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

FreeBSD is not "compatible with Linux", it provides a way to run Linux applications under a Linux-like syscall environment. What you're suggesting is as if you could load Linux kernel modules into the FreeBSD kernel.

The issue with NT is the driver ecosystem. You'd have to reimplement a lot of under-documented NT behavior for NT drivers to behave themselves, and making that work within the Linux kernel would require major architectural changes. The userland is also where a lot of magic happens for application compatibility.

BoredomIsFun 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> What you're suggesting is as if you could load Linux kernel modules into the FreeBSD kernel.

Afaik, you partially can.

bryanlarsen 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's far from "roughly compatible with NT", but the Linux kernel does accept changes to make supporting Windows applications more efficient.

example: ntsync

jchw 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Me as a kid thought this would be a great idea, and started implementing a PE binfmt. I actually did make a rudimentary PE binfmt, though it started to occur to me how different Windows and Linux really were as I progressed.

For example, with ELF/UNIX, the basic ELF binfmt is barely any more complex than what you'd probably expect the a.out binfmt to be: it maps sections into memory and then executes. Dynamic linking isn't implemented; instead, similar to the interpreter of a shell script, an ELF binary can have an interpreter (PT_INTERP) which is loaded in lieu of the actual binary. This way, the PT_INTERP can be set to the well-known path of the dynamic linker of your libc, which itself is a static ELF binary. It is executed with the appropriate arguments loaded onto the stack and the dynamic linker starts loading the actual binary and its dependencies.

Windows is totally different here. I mean, as far as I know, the dynamic linker is still in userland, known as the Windows Loader. However, the barrier between the userland and kernel land is not stable for Windows NT. Syscall numbers can change during major updates. And, sometimes, implementation details are split between the kernel and userland. Now, in order to be able to contribute to Wine and other projects, I've had to be very careful how I discover how Windows internals works, often by reading other's writings and doing careful black box analysis (for some of this I have work I can show to show how I figured it out.) But for example, the PEB/TIB structures that store information about processes/threads seems to be something that both the userland and kernel components both read and modify. For dynamic linking in particular, there are some linked lists in the PEB that store the modules loaded into the process, and I believe these are used by both the Windows loader and the kernel in some cases.

The Windows NT kernel also just takes on a lot more responsibilities. For example, input. I can literally identify some of the syscalls that go into input handling and observe how they change behavior depending on the last result of PeekMessage. The kernel also appears to be the part of the system that handles event coalescing and priority. It's nothing absurd (the Wine project has already figured out how a lot of this works) but it is a Huge difference from Linux where there's no concept of "messages" and probably shouldn't be.

So the equivalent of the Windows NT kernel services would often be more appropriate to put in userland on Linux anyways, and Wine already does that.

It would still be interesting to attempt to get a Windows XP userland to boot directly on a Linux kernel, but I don't think you'd ever end up with anything that could ever be upstreamed :)

Maybe we should do the PE binfmt though. I am no longer a fan of ELF with it's symbol conflicts and whatnot. Let's make Linux PE-based so we can finally get icons for binaries without needing to append a filesystem to the end of it :)

direwolf20 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can already use binfmt_misc to instruct the kernel to execute PE binaries with Wine.

jchw 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean something a bit different. I mean using PE binaries to store Linux programs, no Wine loader.

Of course, this is a little silly. It would require massively rethinking many aspects of the Linux userland, like the libc design. However, I honestly would be OK with this future. I don't really care that much for ELF or its consequences, and there are PE32+ binaries all over the place anyways, so may as well embrace it. Linux itself is often a PE32+ binary, for the sake of EFI stub/UKI.

(You could also implement this with binfmt_misc, sure, but then you'd still need at least an ELF binary for the init binary and/or a loader.)

(edit: But like I said, it's a little silly. It breaks all kinds of shit. Symbol interposition stops working. The libdl API breaks. You can't LD_PRELOAD. The libpthread trick to make errno a thread local breaks. Etc, etc.)

direwolf20 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Wine has no problem loading Linux programs in PE format. It doesn't enforce that you actually call any Windows functions and it doesn't stop you making Linux system calls directly.

jchw 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Well yes, but you'd be spawning a wineserver and running wineboot and all kinds of baggage on top, all for the very simple task of mapping and executing a PE binary, and of course you would still wind up needing ELF... for the Wine loader and all of the dependencies that it has (like a libc, though you could maybe use a statically-linked musl or something to try to minimize it.)

Meanwhile the actual process of loading a PE binary is relatively trivial. It's trivial enough that it has been implemented numerous times in different forms by many people. Hell, I've done it numerous times myself, once for game hacking and once in pure Go[1] as a stubborn workaround for another problem.

Importing an entire Wine install, or even putting the effort into stripping Wine down for this purpose, seems silly.

But I suppose the entire premise is a little silly to begin with, so I guess it's not that unreasonable, it's just not what I am imagining. I'm imagining a Linux userland with simply no ELF at all.

[1]: https://github.com/jchv/go-winloader - though it doesn't do linking recursively, since for this particular problem simply calling LoadLibrary is good enough.

saghm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I recently learned that Windows binaries contain metadata for what version they are (among other things, presumably). I was discussing in-progress work on making a mod manager for a popular game work on Linux with the author of the tool, and they mentioned that one of the things that surprised them was not being able to rely on inspection of a native library used by most mods to determine what version they had installed on Linux like they could on Windows. It had never occurred to them that this wasn't a first-class feature of Linux binary formats, and I was equally surprised to find out that it was a thing on Windows given that I haven't regularly used Windows since before I really had much of a concept of what "metadata in a binary format" would even mean.

1718627440 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you talking about the "Linux version" it targets or the version of the library? If its the latter, then it is the case, that versioning works per symbol instead of per library, so that a newer library can still contain the old symbols. If you want the latest version a library implements, you could search all symbols and look for the newest symbol version.

If you want it the other way around you could look at the newest symbol the library wants.

dmitrygr 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That would require (among many other things) a stable driver API -- one of the things NT gets right and linux is wrong on. Linus has been quite clear that he does not see things this way. So ... not going to happen

snvzz 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>it'd offer a solution to keeping niche HW running

Preservation. It ensures WinNT survives as a platform even if Microsoft abandons it, which some would argue the present state of Win11 counts as doing.

ch_123 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If MS abandons WinNT, then people will likely continue to use the existing versions of Windows which are out there for any existing software (just as people continue to use MS-DOS and Win 9x for old games and software).

As for new software - I think it's open to debate just how much new Win32 software will be created after a hypothetical abandonment by Microsoft of Windows.

godzillabrennus 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Windows 11 is the enshitification late stage advertisement economy product that no one asked for, and everyone in the C Suite at Microsoft is excited about. Probably the only thing they are more excited for is yet another terrible branding decision.

Cthulhu_ 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is money the issue for this project, or finding the right people?

Or another point of view, if you put a lot of money into it, it becomes a commercial endeavour - would it still be for a good cause?

More armchair internet commenter devil's advocate discussion starters than any opinions of mine to be honest. But, there's a lot of projects that would benefit from no-strings-attached donations.

velcrovan 9 hours ago | parent [-]

As far as I can tell, the nearest thing to a stated goal or mission is on their “About” page:

    Our main features are:

    * ReactOS is able to run Windows software
    * ReactOS is able to run Windows drivers
    * ReactOS looks-like Windows
    * ReactOS is free and open source
Building a replica of an old OS is a fun project, but if there was a purpose for it besides having an "is able to" replica, it would attract more people.
squeefers 7 hours ago | parent [-]

in the real world, most people use windows. most software that those people use is written for windows. if it can run windows exes out of the box, whilst not phoning home to microsoft, it becomes an attractive proposition. i want to get off windows but i dont want the headache of linux; to me its the only hope

velcrovan 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, but Windows has moved a long ways since the version that they're attempting to replicate. And again, their bar for success "is able to run Windows programs" is not actually high enough to achieve a practical Windows replacement, even if going back to Windows 95 is all we wanted.

It's interesting you mention Linux being a headache — it is, but there is an order of magnitude more people working full-time on just the Linux desktop experience than have ever even tried running ReactOS. That ratio would have to flip before the latter has a hope of being a useful Windows replacement. We’re much more likely to see Wine able to run 100% of Windows before ReactOS gets there.

drzaiusx11 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wonder if any corporations that could benefit from this project could help bankroll it (of which I assume there are many.)

Wish they had a sponsorship listing on their GH page... I poked around and couldn't find one

freedomben 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I suspect this would be a very risky proposition for them. The expense would be enormous, so it would either need to be a player with such huge economies of scale to make it work, or it would have to be a collection of businesses that in aggregate could make it economically feasible. I would suspect in most cases, it would be a lot cheaper to just port your software to modern Linux than to try to get react OS over the line. And that's before considering that a lot of the large players will be in contract situations with Microsoft that likely directly prevent this sort of thing

genewitch 6 hours ago | parent [-]

apple, nvidia, microsoft, google, facebook, amazon, broadcom(!!!!), TSMC(!), and tesla all have way more than a trillion dollars.

>$1,000,000,000,000.00

They could give this project $10,000,000 per year for a decade and not notice. we're talking "slap on the wrist fine" levels of money here.

freedomben 4 hours ago | parent [-]

but why would any of those companies want to use ReactOS? They already build on top of Linux, except maybe Microsoft, but certainly Microsoft wouldn't want to fund ReactOS...

If I were an executive at those places and somebody proposed ReactOS to replace our foundation, I'd assume they were joking/trolling and would laugh (and genuinely find it funny)

genewitch 3 hours ago | parent [-]

who said they need to use reactOS or "replace their foundation", which is a term i cannot parse, i don't think anyone wants to use this as a server platform (that was my default assumption of that phrase.)

this is "we have a market cap of 61,271,506 times the median household income in the USA, we can afford to peel off 1/500,000th (0.0002%) of our market cap per year to make this project awesome because we like this project and want to see it grow"

zamadatix 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's a sponsorship section but it just links to the donate page rather than a corporate focused sponsorship program. It seems most of the corporate activity in this space is around userspace compatibility rather than NT kernel compatibility, like CrossOver or Valve driving Wine and other codebases in that regard.

forinti 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At this point, if I magically became filthy rich, I would invest in tools that facilitate migrating from Oracle to Postgresql, including Apex.

doublerabbit 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Let's become billionaires together. You bankroll ReactOS and I'll bankroll HaikuOS.

snvzz 9 hours ago | parent [-]

And I'll join in and bankroll AROS.

Together, we could bankroll Minix3 as well.

LoganDark 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Who wants to bankroll SerenityOS?

drnick1 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ladybird has quite a few corporate sponsors now and is progressing quite well. I built and tested the latest sources over the winter break and it sort of works already. I posted on HN from it.

snvzz 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think that one wants to be bankrolled. It'd go against its spirit.