Those things are as designed. This is good. We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US. We want to have rights as employees. We want to have social welfare. We want our free healthcare.

It's not a bug it's a feature. We don't want an American-style society. Current developments should be enough reason to understand why (and the understanding that Trump's backers are part of a huge group of people on the low side of the wealth gap). If anything we have too much of that already hence the rise of extreme right here too. It's a result of the austerity movements after the 2007 crash.

But this new regulation doesn't invalidate employee rights no. It's just about registration and incorporation.

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galangalalgol 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Free healthcare and social welfare I'm in agreement on. But why does at will employment need to conflict with that? The problems of wage values, food and shelter, and healthcare can be handled completely independently of employment. If someone feels it is too easy to do nothing without requiring employment to gain some of those benefits, you can have the government as an employer of last resort. But making it easy for anyone and everyone to start and maintain a business is a societal good. We are asking why doesn't a person have guaranteed employment, when we should ask why do they need it. If a person was let go and could with empty pockets be assured of food shelter and healthcare, and also be able to start their own company on the way home from being let go, that is the society I'd want to live in.

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wolvoleo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

At will employment is something we'll never accept here. We don't need the threat of having nothing from one day to the next.

It's good for billionaires but not for actual people that matter.

Running a business is not something everyone should have to do anyway. It's good if it's hard. That keeps the cowboys at bay.

I would never ever want to own a business. I don't need that uncertainty. I just want a stable wage.

The prevailing idea here is that the US is best at everything and its model will always win. But in reality it's been in decline for a long time and it's become a pretty toxic society I don't want to see here in Europe. Trump is only a symptom of that but not the cause. The real cause is a top layer (which many HN commenters are part of) that is getting ever richer and a huge disadvantaged mass that is stagnant or declining. Their anger is what drives MAGA. Also called late stage capitalism. Going even more capitalist is not the way to fix or prevent that.

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galangalalgol 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I agree with everything you said except for the cowboys bit. I don't think business owners should be a separate class of people. It shouldn't be unusual to meet people that own their business. I don't want to do it, it would stress me. But we can let random people try random ideas without having to start out wealthy, and we shouldn't have the failure of that business and the loss of those employees' jobs, risk the health and well-being of those let go. If getting fired just meant you had to do with fewer luxuries until you found another, we wouldn't need to protect those jobs to the detriment of a business. By tying employment to safety and well-being, we complicate the whole matter.

	▲	wolvoleo 3 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		By cowboys I mean the people starting businesses left right and center and just collapsing them when they don't get the desired result straight away. E.g. US venture capitalism. I think it's a really good thing that we don't have that here in Europe. Sure it prevents the googles and metas but those would never have made it that big here anyway because we regulate big businesses before they become uncontrollable. And now that we are breaking off ties with the US we will have to build our own anyway, just with sustainable and fair business models. Sure we can get society to pick up the tab but the problem is that those cowboys are even more incentivised to be risky then. There should be a penalty for them when it goes wrong.

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ragall 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Various places in Europe already have what amounts to at-will employment. There are exemptions for companies under a certain number of employees (e.g. 25 in Italy). There's a wide use of fixed-term contracts (6/12 months). Many work through agencies, which means they can be "fired" with a few weeks' notice.

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WarmWash 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The EU has a borderline stagnant economy, couldn't defend itself from Russia, facing population collapse, totally whiffed on the tech scene explosion in the last 25 years, now also missing out on AI. European social obligations are expensive, yet nobody seems to really want to stress about creating new sources of wealth.

At some point Europeans need to look in the mirror, and understand that the last 30 years has been a vacation, and even worse, there is now a whole generation who was born on vacation and thinks it's the norm.

	▲	wolvoleo 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		We can defend ourselves, it's just that the US didn't want a too-powerful Europe until trump. In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that. We'll have to scale this up now but it is not a big problem. Population collapse is a good thing. We already have too many people in this world, causing environmental and housing issues. We can't keep ever growing as humanity, stabilisation or even a reduction is very good. It'll cause some short term cash flow and elderly care issues but we'll deal with that. And AI so far is more of a hollow promise and hype. It's not a race, the way America is approaching it it's inevitably going to lead to a bubble collapse.

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usrnm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Refusal to learn and change, even if it means learning from people you disagree with, is simply arrogant and stupid. The US is the biggest economy in the world with the strongest tech sector in the world, they are obviously doing something right. And many personal accounts from people doing business in the EU in this thread show that the EU is doing at least some things wrong.

	▲	wolvoleo 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		We don't care only about money. We're doing pretty great, we have some issues like housing cost but the US has those too. I'm happy with my life and I don't feel like there's something missing that having more money would fix. Less employment and welfare rights would cause a lot of worry and uncertainty though. It's not all about economy and getting ever more more more like the US. I'm pretty happy living here and I would never move to the US. In fact right now I wouldn't even visit it but hopefully the status quo doesn't last forever. And it's not all about business. But about people, the employees.

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ExoticPearTree 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US.

Only lazy people want to be employed for life somewhere. All the benefits, no responsibility.

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wolvoleo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No, we still work. Just want some continuity. Not working for a company without direction chasing the latest fad and dumping everyone if it doesn't work out, but a good company with a decent business plan.

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ExoticPearTree an hour ago | parent [-]

Then go be an entrepreneur and create a company with no risk of failing. And let us know how that works out for you.

	▲	wolvoleo an hour ago \| parent [-]
		I don't want to be an entrepreneur. And it doesn't have to be riskless. Just to have a good business (plan). But this is the status quo in Europe. Companies are forced to take failure into account before they dive in deep, because it will cost them. Provide benefits for their employees, etc. This is good. Companies exist to provide jobs. Not only to make money for the owner and externalise all the negative effects on society. I just don't understand the desire to turn the EU into the US. If you like how business in the US works, just start your business there, not here. Meanwhile I as a worker would never consider moving there. This way we can both get what we want.

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socksy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Good thing then that there's a range of options between being let go immediately for no reason and companies being forced to employ bad employees for life.

	▲	wolvoleo 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yes and that's basically what we have in most of Europe. Only France really has a bit of the latter. You can get rid of employees. You just have to show to the court that is necessary. Circumstances depend on whether it's individual performance or business need etc. But the at will is very harsh and we don't want this here.