With the government harassing, attacking, and now killing innocent American citizens, I'm not so sure if the second amendment is working out so well.

With the ridiculous leeway American law enforcement has when it comes to harming people ("qualified immunity"), I don't think that second amendment will be relevant until there's an outright civil war happening. And when it comes to that, one or both sides have access to predator drones and fighter jets.

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Nifty3929 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not civil war, but a revolution. The 2nd amendment isn't worth much except as a very last resort, when the vast majority of people are willing to die to overthrow a government, as we're seeing in Iran.

The people claiming that having guns won't save you against the weight of the army are only partly correct. Having a few guns won't save me personally. I would certainly be killed on my own. But no government can kill everyone, either as a practical matter, or simply because you still need folks to produce the food. When everybody is armed, the government simply cannot oppress them to the same degree.

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anon84873628 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Imagine every protestor you see on video was instead standing rank and file in the street with a rifle on their shoulder. I.e. a well regulated militia. That would sure send a very different message, wouldn't it?

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watwut 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Message that "yes these are thugs and it is ok to kill them".

Police can kill you if they feel fear or pretend to feel fear. And having a gun was already ruled valid legal reasom for police to kill people.

If protesters carried guns, ICE could legally murder them. Not just J.D.Vance legaly, but legaly per how courts interpret such situations.

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anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Well then that will be something for the courts to sort out, especially in the open carry states.

But I think you are underestimating the effect it will have on individual federal agents, who might decide the pay isn't good enough anymore.

These scenes are also put on for the benefit of the politicians watching.

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watwut 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Well then that will be something for the courts to sort out, especially in the open carry states.

They already sorted it out - in open carry states. In the above situation, the court in open carry state sides with cops.

It is really simple. Sentencing cop for on duty murder is extraordinary hard even in clear cut cases. Guns presence means a cop can say he was afraid. And afraid cop is entitled to kill.

> But I think you are underestimating the effect it will have on individual federal agents, who might decide the pay isn't good enough anymore.

You are over estimating it. They would just shoot and feel good about it.

Even if they left, the state would send better trained troop the next time.

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anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent [-]

During BLM protests there were anti-protesters doing exactly what I described, and they were not automatically shot at by police. Of course the political roles are reversed, but I don't believe it is as guaranteed as you suggest. And the legality is of course much more complicated than you portray as well.

	▲	watwut 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		The courts decided exactly like I said when cops shot. That the cops shown more restraint in BLM case is good. The political roles being different is key factor - ICE wants to kill and this administration wants them to kill. It makes them feel manly. Frankly, the theory that armed forces would step back is absurd. They are cowards, but they are not afraid to kill. They are so afraid of everything that they are more likely to kill And other side are people with moral limits. People who are not afraid and are showimg courage every day, but not murderers. And ICE knows that. No one in ICE fears life ... they fear being emasculated.