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CharlesW 11 hours ago

> I'm oversimplifying but this effectively turns the iPhone into a dumb terminal for Google's brain, wrapped in Apple's privacy theater.

Setting aside the obligatory HN dig at the end, LLMs are now commodities and the least important component of the intelligence system Apple is building. The hidden-in-plain-sight thing Apple is doing is exposing all app data as context and all app capabilities as skills. (See App Intents, Core Spotlight, Siri Shortcuts, etc.)

Anyone with an understanding of Apple's rabid aversion to being bound by a single supplier understands that they've tested this integration with all foundation models, that they can swap Google out for another vendor at any time, and that they have a long-term plan to eliminate this dependency as well.

> Apple admitted that the cost of training SOTA models is a capex heavy-lift they don't want to own.

I'd be interested in a citation for this (Apple introduced two multilingual, multimodal foundation language models in 2025), but in any case anything you hear from Apple publicly is what they want you to think for the next few quarters, vs. an indicator of what their actual 5-, 10-, and 20-year plans are.

dktp 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My guess is that this is bigger lock-in than it might seem on paper.

Google and Apple together will posttrain Gemini to Apple's specification. Google has the know-how as well as infra and will happily do this (for free ish) to continue the mutually beneficial relationship - as well as lock out competitors that asked for more money (Anthropic)

Once this goes live, provided Siri improves meaningfully, it is quite an expensive experiment to then switch to a different provider.

For any single user, the switching costs to a different LLM are next to nothing. But at Apple's scale they need to be extremely careful and confident that the switch is an actual improvement

ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> provided Siri improves meaningfully

Not a high bar…

That said, Apple is likely to end up training their own model, sooner or later. They are already in the process of building out a bunch of data centers, and I think they have even designed in-house servers.

Remember when iPhone maps were Google Maps? Apple Maps have been steadily improving, to the point they are as good as, if not better than, Google Maps, in many areas (like around here. I recently had a friend send me a GM link to a destination, and the phone used GM for directions. It was much worse than Apple Maps. After a few wrong turns, I pulled over, fed the destination into Apple Maps, and completed the journey).

TheOtherHobbes 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's a very low baseline with Siri, so almost anything would be an improvement.

anamexis 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The point is that once Siri is switched to a Gemini-based model, the baseline presumably won't be low anymore.

brokencode 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m not so sure. Just think about coding assistants with MCP based tools. I can use multiple different models in GitHub Copilot and get good results with similarly capable models.

Siri’s functionality and OS integration could be exposed in a similar, industry-standard way via tools provided to the model.

Then any other model can be swapped in quite easily. Of course, they may still want to do fine tuning, quantization, performance optimization for Apple’s hardware, etc.

But I don’t see why the actual software integration part needs to be difficult.

inferiorhuman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Doubt it. Of all the issues I run into with Siri none could be solved by throwing AI slop at it. Case in point: if I ask Siri to play an album and it can't match the album name it just plays some random shit instead of erroring out.

andy_ppp 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

Um if I ask an LLM about a fake band it literally say I couldn't find any songs by the fake band did you type is correctly and it's about a millions times more likely to guess correctly. Why do you say it doesn't solve loads of things? I'm more concerned about the problems it creates (prompt injection, hallucinations in important work, bad logic in code), the actual functionality will be fantastic compared to Siri right now!

inferiorhuman 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

  Why do you say it doesn't solve loads of things? 
Because I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting for random pages to go through their anti-LLM bot crap. LLMs create more problems than they solve.

  Um if I ask an LLM about a fake band it literally say I couldn't find any
  songs by the fake band did you type is correctly and it's about a millions
  times more likely to guess correctly
Um if Apple wrote proper error handling in the first place the issue would be solve without LLM baggage. Apple made a conscious decision to handle "unknown" artists this way, LLMs don't change that.
eastbound 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ollama! Why didn’t they just run Ollama and a public model! They’ve kept the last 10 years with a Siri who doesn’t know any contact named Chronometer only to require the best in class LLM?

JumpCrisscross 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Why didn’t they just run Ollama and a public model

Same reason they switched to Intel chips in the 2000s. They were better. Then Cupertino watched. And it learned. And it leapfrogged.

If I were Google, my fear would be Apple launching and then cutting the line at TSMC to mass produce custom silicon in the 2030s.

crazygringo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm genuinely curious about this too. If you really only need the language and common sense parts of an LLM -- not deep factual knowledge of every technical and cultural domain -- then aren't the public models great? Just exactly what you need? Nobody's using Siri for coding.

Are there licensing issues regarding commercial use at scale or something?

macNchz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Pure speculation, but I’d guess that an arrangement with Google comes with all sorts of ancillary support that will help things go smoothly: managed fine tuning/post-training, access to updated models as they become available, safety/content-related guarantees, reliability/availability terms so the whole thing doesn’t fall flat on launch day etc.

andy_ppp 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Probably repeatability and privacy guarantees around infrastructure and training too. Google already have very defined splits for their Gemma and in house models with engineers and researchers rarely communicating directly.

chankstein38 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The other day I was trying to navigate to a Costco in my car. So I opened google maps on Android Auto on the screen in my car and pressed the search box. My car won't allow me to type even while parked... so I have to speak to the Google Voice Assistant.

I was in the map search, so I just said "Costco" and it said "I can't help with that right now, please try again later" or something of the sort. I tried a couple more times until I changed up to saying "Navigate me to Costco" where it finally did the search in the textbox and found it for me.

Obviously this isn't the same thing as Gemini but the experience with Android Auto becomes more and more garbage as time passes and I'm concerned that now we're going to have 2 google product voice assistants.

Also, tbh, Gemini was great a month ago but since then it's become total garbage. Maybe it passes benchmarks or whatever but interacting with it is awful. It takes more time to interact with than to just do stuff yourself at this point.

I tried Google Maps AI last night and, wow. The experience was about as garbage as you can imagine.

woah 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Siri on my Apple Home will default to turning off all the lights in the kitchen if it misunderstands anything. Much hilarity ensues

antod an hour ago | parent [-]

Share and Enjoy

hadlock 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> what their actual 5-, 10-, and 20-year plans are

Seems like they are waiting for the "slope of enlightenment" on the gartner hype curve to flatten out. Given you can just lease or buy a SOTA model from leading vendors there's no advantage to training your own right now. My guess is that the LLM/AI landscape will look entirely different by 2030 and any 5 year plan won't be in the same zip code, let alone playing field. Leasing an LLM from Google with a support contract seems like a pretty smart short term play as things continue to evolve over the next 2-3 years.

IgorPartola 8 hours ago | parent [-]

This is the key. The real issue is that you don’t need superhuman intelligence in a phone AI assistant. You don’t need it most of the time in fact. Current SOTA models do a decent job of approximating college grad level human intelligence let’s say 85% of the time which is helpful and cool but clearly could be better. But the pace at which the models are getting smart is accelerating AND they are getting more energy efficient and memory efficient. So if something like DeepSeek is roughly 2 years behind SOTA models from Google and others who have SOTA models then in 2030 you can expect 2028 level performance out open models. There will come a time when a model capable of college grad level intelligence 99.999% of the time will be able to run on a $300 device. If you are Apple you do not need to lead the charge on a SOTA model, you can just wait until one is available for much cheaper. Your product is the devices and services consumers buy. If you are OpenAI you have no other products. You must become THE AI to have in an industry that will in the next few years become dominated by open models that are good enough or to close up shop or come up with another product that has more of a moat.

ipaddr 8 hours ago | parent [-]

"pace at which the models are getting smart is accelerating". The pace is decelerating.

slwvx 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My impression is that solar (and maybe wind?) energy have benefited from learning-by-doing [1][2] that has resulted in lower costs and/or improved performance each year. It seems reasonable to me that a similar process will apply to AI (at least in the long run). The rate of learning could be seen as a "pace" of improvement. I'm curious, do you have a reference for the deceleration of pace that you refer to?

[1] https://emp.lbl.gov/news/new-study-refocuses-learning-curve

[2] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices-vs-cumula...

crazygringo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think anyone really knows, because there's no objective standard for determining progress.

Lots of benchmarks exist where everyone agrees that higher scores are better, but there's no sense in which going from a score of 400 to 500 is the same progress as going from 600 to 700, or less, or more. They only really have directional validity.

I mean, the scores might correspond to real-world productivity rates in some specific domain, but that just begs the question -- productivity rates on a specific task are not intelligence.

VirusNewbie 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

          LLMs are now commodities and the least important component of the intelligence system Apple is building

If that was even remotely true, Apple, Meta, and Amazon would have SoTA foundational models.
Majromax 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Why? Grain is a commodity, but I buy flour at the store rather than grow my own. The “commmodity” argument suggets that new companies should stay away from model training unless they have a cost edge.

VirusNewbie 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you not aware that all of the above have all invested billions trying to train a SoTA Foundational model?

bigyabai 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's not an "obligatory HN dig" though, you're in-media-res watching X escape removal from the App Store and Play Store. Concepts like privacy, legality and high-quality software are all theater. We have no altruists defending these principles for us at Apple or Google.

Apple won't switch Google out as a provider for the same reason Google is your default search provider. They don't give a shit about how many advertisements you're shown. You are actually detached from 2026 software trends if you think Apple is going to give users significant backend choices. They're perfectly fine selling your attention to the highest bidder.

theshrike79 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are second-order effects of Google or Apple removing Twitter from their stores.

Guess who's the bestie of Twitter's owner? Any clues? Could that be a vindictive old man with unlimited power and no checks and balances to temper his tantrums?

Of course they both WANT Twitter the fuck out of the store, but there are very very powerful people addicted to the app and what they can do with it.

bigyabai 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That further proves my point that they are monopolies that cannot survive without protectionist intervention.

mschuster91 3 hours ago | parent [-]

In the current US environment, no one can survive going against Trump, and as recently evidenced, this is meant literally.

The US, for all intents and purposes, is now a kleptocracy. Rule of law, freedom of speech, even court orders, all of that doesn't matter any more in practice. There will always be some way for the federal government to strong-arm anyone into submission.

sandytoast 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Not with that attitude they can’t. Let’s see what happens to the first person to call his bull shit. If jpow folds or is actually indicted, you may be right. Let’s see what happens with Exxon though i think they’re gonna bend the knee.

kshacker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I do not usually comment on politics but just this one time, and hopefully I can wordsmith it without taking a political stance.

When Trump started his campaign, circa 2011 with the birth certificate, he did not know he will win or not, but he made it his life's mission.

Countering him will take the same zeal. I know we have a precedence of presidents retiring, but unless Obama (and Hillary and Biden and Kamala) hits the streets as the leader of resistance, the resistance will be quelled easily by constant distracting. Yeah maybe AOC, maybe Bernie, maybe someone else, but no ... Trump is smart and dedicated (despite the useful idiot role he plays), he can not be countered by mid-term and full-term campaigns. We are not in Kansas any more. Been a while. The opposition needs a named resistance leader whose full time job is to engage Trump.

kennywinker 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Caveat: as long as it doesn’t feel like you’re being sold out.

Which is why privacy theatre was an excellent way to put it

yunohn 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple’s various privileged device-level ads and instant-stop-on-cancel trials and special rules for notifications for their paid additional services like Fitness+, Music, Arcade, iCloud+, etc are all proof that they do not care about the user anymore.