| ▲ | zeroonetwothree 11 hours ago |
| You’re right of course. For me there’s no flow state possible with LLM “coding”. That makes it feel miserable instead of joyous. Sitting around waiting while it spits out tokens that I then have to carefully look over and tweak feels like very hard work. Compared to entering flow and churning out those tokens myself, which feels effortless once I get going. Probably other people feel differently. |
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| ▲ | afavour an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| The incredible thing (to me) is that this isn’t even remotely a new thing: it’s reviewing pull requests vs writing your own code. We all know how different that feels! |
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| ▲ | godelski 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | For me it feels like print statement debugging in a compiled language | |
| ▲ | kristofferR 20 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Correct, provided you were the one who wrote an incredibly specific feature request that the pull request solved for you. |
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| ▲ | wpm 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm the same way. LLMs are still somewhat useful as a way to start a greenfield project, or as a very hyper-custom google search to have it explain something to me exactly how I'd like it explained, or generate examples hyper-tuned for the problem at hand, but that's hardly as transformative or revolutionary as everyone is making Claude Code out to be. I loathe the tone these things take with me and hate how much extra bullshit I didn't ask for they always add to the output. When I do have it one-shot a complete problem, I never copy paste from it. I type it all out myself. I didn't pay hundreds of dollars for a mechanical keyboard, tuned to make every keypress a joy, to push code around with a fucking mouse. |
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| ▲ | mirror_neuron 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m a “LLM believer” in a sense, and not someone who derives joy from actually typing out the tokens in my code, but I also agree with you about the hype surrounding Claude Code and “agentic” systems in general. I have found the three positive use cases you mentioned to be transformative to my workflow on its own. I’m grateful that they exist even if they never get better than they are today. | |
| ▲ | pfannkuchen 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I didn't pay hundreds of dollars for a mechanical keyboard, tuned to make every keypress a joy, to push code around with a fucking mouse Can’t you use vim controls? | |
| ▲ | sauercrowd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > and hate how much extra bullshit I didn't ask for they always add to the output. I can recommend for that problem to make the "jumps" smaller, e.g. "Add a react component for the profile section, just put a placeholder for now" instead of "add a user profile". With coding LLMs there's a bit of a hidden "zoom" functionality by doing that, which can help calibrating the speed/involvment/thinking you and the LLM does. | |
| ▲ | 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | lotu 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes this is exactly what I feel. I disconnect enough that if it’s really taking its time I will pull up Reddit and now that single prompt cost me half an hour. |
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| ▲ | sauercrowd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Three things I can suggest to try, having struggled with something similiar: 1. Look at it as a completely different discipline, dont consider it leverage for coding - it's it's own thing. 2. Try using it on something you just want to exist, not something you want to build or are interested in understanding. 3. Make the "jumps" smaller. Don't oneshot the project. Do the thinking yourself, and treat it as a junior programmer: "Let's now add react components for the profile section and mount them. Dont wire them up yet" instead of "Build the profile section". This also helps finding the right speed so that you can keep up with what's happening in the codebase |
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| ▲ | fao_ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Try using it on something you just want to exist, not something you want to build or are interested in understanding. I don't get any enjoyment from "building something without understanding" — what would I learn from such a thing? How could I trust it to be secure or to not fall over when i enter a weird character? How can I trust something I do not understand or have not read the foundations of? Furthermore, why would I consider myself to have built it? When I enter a building, I know that an engineer with a degree, or even a team of them, have meticulously built this building taking into account the material stresses of the ground, the fault lines, the stresses of the materials of construction, the wear amounts, etc. When I make a program, I do the same thing. Either I make something for understanding, OR I make something robust to be used. I want to trust the software I'm using to not contain weird bugs that are difficult to find, as best as I can ensure that. I want to ensure that the code is clean, because code is communication, and communication is an art form — so my code should be clean, readable, and communicative about the concepts that I use to build the thing. LLMs do not assure me of any of this, and the actively hamstring the communication aspect. Finally, as someone surrounded by artists, who has made art herself, the "doing of it" has been drilled into me as the "making". I don't get the enjoyment of making something, because I wouldn't have made it! You can commission a painting from an artist, but it is hubris to point at a painting you bought or commissioned and go "I made that". But somehow it is acceptable to do this for LLMs. That is a baffling mindset to me! | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Lately I've been interesting in biosignals, biofeedback and biosynchronization. I've been really frustrated with the state of Heart Rate Variability (HRV) research and HRV apps, particularly those that claim to be "biofeedback" but are really just guided breathing exercises by people who seem to have the lights on and nobody home. [1] I could have spent a lot of time reading the docs to understand the Web Bluetooth API and facing up to the stress that getting anything with Bluetooth working with a PC is super hit and miss so estimating the time I'd expect a high risk of spending hours rebooting my computer and otherwise futzing around to debug connection problems. Although it's supposedly really easy to do this with the Web Bluetooth API I amazingly couldn't find any examples which made all the more apprehensive that there was some reason it doesn't work. [2] As it was Junie coded me a simple webapp that pulled R-R intervals from my Polar H10 heart rate monitor in 20 minutes and it worked the first time. And in a few days, I've already got an HRV demo app that is superior to the commercial ones in numerous ways... And I understand how it works 100%. I wouldn't call it vibe coding because I had my feet on the ground the whole time. [1] for instance I am used to doing meditation practices with my eyes closed and not holding a 'freakin phone in my hand. why they expect me to look at a phone to pace my breathing when it could talk to be or beep at me is beyond me. for that matter why they try to estimate respiration by looking at my face when they could get if off the accelerometer if i put in on my chest when i am lying down is also beyond me. [2] let's see, people don't think anything is meaningful if it doesn't involve an app, nobody's gotten a grant to do biofeedback research since 1979 so the last grad student to take a class on the subject is retiring right about now... | |
| ▲ | sauercrowd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You seem to read a lot into what I wrote, so let me phrase it differently. These are ways I'd suggest to approach working with LLMs if you enjoy building software, and are trying to find out how it can fit into your workflow. If this isnt you, these suggestions probably wont work. > I don't get any enjoyment from "building something without understanding". That's not what I said. It's about your primary goal. Are you trying to learn technology xyz, and found a project so you can apply it vs you want a solution to your problem, and nothing exists, so you're building it. What's really important is that wether you understand in the end what the LLM has written or not is 100% your decision. You can be fully hands off, or you can be involved in every step. | |
| ▲ | c-hendricks 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I build a lot of custom tools, things with like a couple of users. I get a lot of personal satisfaction writing that code. I think comments on YouTube like "anyone still here in $CURRENT_YEAR" are low effort noise, I don't care about learning how to write a web extension (web work is my day job) so I got Claude to write one for me. I don't care who wrote it, I just wanted it to exist. |
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| ▲ | RayVR 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the key thing here is in point 2. I’ve wanted a good markdown editor with automatic synchronization. I used to used inkdrop. Which I stopped using when the developer/owner raised the price to $120/year. In a couple hours with Claude code, I built a replacement that does everything I want, exactly the way I want. Plus, it integrates native AI chat to create/manage/refine notes and ideas, and it plugs into a knowledge RAG system that I also built using Claude code. What more could I ask for? This is a tool I wanted for a long time but never wanted to spend the dozens of hours dealing with the various pieces of tech I simply don’t care about long-term. This was my AI “enlightenment” moment. | | |
| ▲ | rossu 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Really interesting. How do you find the quality of the code and the final result to be? Do you maybe have this public, would love to check it out! |
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| ▲ | falcor84 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > For me there’s no flow state possible with LLM “coding”. I would argue that it's the same question as whether it's possible to get into a flow state when being the "navigator" in a pair-programming session. I feel you and agree that it's not quite the same flow state as typing the code yourself, but when a session with a human programmer or Claude Code is going well for me, I am definitely in something quite close to flow myself, and I can spend hours in the back and forth. But as others in this thread said, it's about the size of the tasks you give it. |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent [-] | | I can say I feel that flow state sometimes when it all works but I certainly don't when it doesn't work. The other day I was making changes to some CSS that I partially understood. Without an LLM I would looked at the 50+ CSS spec documents and the 97% wrong answers on Stack Overflow and all the splogs and would have bumbled around and tried a lot of things and gotten it to work in the end and not really understood why and experienced a lot of stress. As it was I had a conversation with Junie about "I observe ... why does it work this way?", "Should I do A or do B?", "What if I did C?" and came to understand the situation 100% and wrote a few lines of code by hand that did the right thing. After that I could have switched it to Code mode and said "Make it so!" but it was easy when I understood it. And the experience was not stressful at all. |
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| ▲ | anonzzzies 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have both; for embedded and backend I prefer entering code; once in the flow, I produce results faster and feel more confident everything is correct. for frontend (except games), i find everything annoying and a waste of time manually, as do all my colleagues. LLMs really made this excellent for our team and myself. I like doing UX, but I like drawing it with a pen and paper and then do experiments with controls/components until it works. This is now all super fast (I usually can just take photo of my drawings and claude makes it work) and we get excellent end results that clients love. |
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| ▲ | jfengel 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I could imagine a world where LLM coding was fun. It would sound like "imagine a game, like Galaxians but using tractor trailers, and as a first person shooter." And it pumps out a draft and you say, "No, let's try it again with an army of bagpipers." In other words, getting to be the "ideas guy", but without sounding like a dipstick who can't do anything. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet. Instead we're at the same point where we are with self-driving: not doing anything but on constant alert. |
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| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Prompt one: imagine a game, like Galaxians but using tractor trailers,
and as a first person shooter. Three.js in index.html
Result: https://gisthost.github.io/?771686585ef1c7299451d673543fbd5dPrompt two: No, let's try it again with an army of bagpipers.
Result: https://gisthost.github.io/?60e18b32de6474fe192171bdef3e1d91I'll be honest, the bagpiper 3D models were way better than I expected! That game's a bit too hard though, you have to run sideways pretty quickly to avoid being destroyed by incoming fire. Here's the full transcript: https://gisthost.github.io/?73536b35206a1927f1df95b44f315d4c | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent [-] | | There's a reason why bagpipes are banned under the Geneva convention! | | |
| ▲ | aleph_minus_one 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >
There's a reason why bagpipes are banned under the Geneva convention! I know this is not Reddit, but when I see such a comment, I can't resist posting a video of "the internet's favorite song" on an electrical violin and bagpipes: > Through the Fire and Flames (Official Video) - Mia x Ally > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVOBpboqCgQ |
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| ▲ | ilaksh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are multiple self driving car companies that are fully autonomous and operating in several cities in the US and China. Waymo has been operating for many years. There are full self driving systems that have been in operation with human driver oversight from multiple companies. And the capabilities of the LLMs in regards to your specific examples were demonstrated below. The inability of the public to perceive or accept the actual state of technology due to bias or cognitive issues is holding back society. | |
| ▲ | jimmaswell 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | For me the excitement is palpable when I've asked it to write a feature, then I go test it and it entirely works as expected. It's so cool. |
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| ▲ | kgdiem 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I feel the same way often but I find it to be very similar to coding. Whether coding or prompting when I’m doing rote, boring work I find it tedious. When I am solving a hard problem or designing something interesting I am engaged. My app is fairly mature with well established patterns, etc. When I’m adding “just CRUD” as part of a feature it’s very tedious to prompt agents, reviewing code, rinse & repeat. Were I actually writing the code by hand I would probably be less productive and just as bored/unsatisfied. I spent a decent amount of time today designing a very robust bulk upload API (compliance fintech, lots of considerations to be had) for customers who can’t do a batch job. When it was finished I was very pleased with the result and had performance tests and everything. |
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| ▲ | rparet 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're not alone. I definitely feel like this is / will be a major adaptation required for software engineers going forward. I don't have any solutions to offer you - but I will say that the state that's enabled by fast feedback loops wasn't always the case. For most of my career build times were much, much longer than they are today, as an example. We had to work around that to maintain flow, and we'll have to work around this, now. |
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| ▲ | bossyTeacher 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This. To me, using an LLMs is more like having a team of ghostwriters writing your novel. Sure, you "built" your novel but it feels entirely different to writing it yourself. |
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| ▲ | biophysboy 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I feel differently! My background isn't programming, so I frequently feel inhibited by coding. I've used it for over a decade but always as a secondary tool. Its fun for me to have a line of reasoning, and be able to toy with and analyze a series of questions faster than I used to be able to. |
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| ▲ | froggit 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ditto. Coding isn't what i specifically do, but it's something i will choose to do when it's the most efficient solution to a problem. I have no problem describing what i need a program to do and how it should do so in a way that could be understandable even to a small child or clever golden retriever, but i'm not so great at the part where you pull out that syntactic sugar and get to turning people words into computer words. LLMs tend to do a pretty good job at translating languages regardless of whether i'm talking to a person or using a code editor, but i don't want them deciding what i wanted to say for me. |
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| ▲ | holoduke 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well are you the super developer than never run into issues, challenges? For me and I think most developers, coding is like a continuous stream of problems you need to solve. For me a LLM is very useful, because I can now develop much faster. Don't have to think which sorting algoritm should be used or which trigonometric function I need for a specific case. My LLM buddy solves most of those issues. |
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| ▲ | gjadi 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | When you don't know the answer to a question you ask an LLM, do you verify it or do you trust it? Like, if it tells you merge sort is better on that particular problem, do you trust it or do you go through an analysis to confirm it really is? I have a hard time trusting what I don't understand. And even more so if I realize later I've been fooled. Note that it's the same with human though.
I think I only trust technical decision I don't understand when I deem the risk of being wrong low enough. Overwise I'll invest in learning and understanding enough to trust the answer. | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Often those kind of performance things just don't matter. Like right now I am working on algorithms for computing heart rate variability and only looking at a 2 minute window with maybe 300 data points at most so whether it is N or N log N or N^2 is beside the point. When I know I computing the right thing for my application and know I've coded it up correctly and I am feeling some pain about performance that's another story. | |
| ▲ | visarga 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For all these "open questions" you might have it is better to ask the LLM write a benchmark and actually see the numbers. Why rush, spend 10 minutes, you will have a decision backed by some real feedback from code execution. But this is just a small part from a much grander testing activity that needs to wrap the LLM code. I think my main job moved to 1. architecting and 2. ensuring the tests are well done. What you don't test is not reliable yet, looking at code is not testing, it's "vibe-testing" and should be an antipattern, no LGTM for AI code. We should rely on our intuition alone because it is not strict enough, and it makes everything slow - we should not "walk the motorcycle". | | |
| ▲ | gjadi 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ok. I also have the intuition that more tests and formal specifications can help there. So far, my biggest issue is, when the code produced is incorrect, with a subtle bug, then I just feel I have wasted time to prompt for something I should have written because now I have to understand it deeply to debug it. If the test infrastructure is sound, then maybe there is a gain after all even if the code is wrong. |
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| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I tell it to write a benchmark, and I learn from how it does that. | | |
| ▲ | gjadi 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | IME I don't learn by reading or watching, only by wrestling with a problem.
ATM, I will only do it if the problem does not feel worth learning about (like jenkinsfile, gradle scripting). But yes, the bench result will tell something true. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like writing. I hate editing. Coding with an LLM seems like it’s often more editing in service of less writing. I get this is a very simplistic way of looking at it and when done right it can produce solutions, even novel solutions, that maybe you wouldn’t have on your own. Or maybe it speeds up a part of the writing that is otherwise slow and painful. But I don’t know, as somebody who doesn’t really code every time I hear people talk about it that’s what it sounds like to me. |
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| ▲ | catlover76 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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