| ▲ | immibis 2 days ago |
| Between the USA and China, definitely China. Seems pretty simple. They have much higher standards of living and while it's very bad you can't say Tiananmen Square, that doesn't overrule food and shelter. They have all the job openings for advanced technology work as well - they no longer just manufacture US designs but are rapidly expanding into making better versions of most things, and the main reason we haven't heard about them is that none of the documentation is in English. They're going to soon find out their stash of dollars is toilet paper, but that won't make too much of a difference with such an advanced economy of their own - the USA will surely have yuan reserves in 30 years. |
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| ▲ | khaki54 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. |
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| ▲ | immibis 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The key words are "essential" and "temporary" - the nouns can be replaced with pretty much anything. In what way do you think the USA is currently doing better than China? Yes you can talk about Tiananmen Square, obviously, but there are other things you can't talk about. | |
| ▲ | energy123 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Safety protects liberty, otherwise you get public safety authoritarians like Duterte or Bukele. This is not advocacy for authoritarianism. It's advocacy for assertive liberalism that is effective at delivering a core human need in order to protect liberalism from itself. | |
| ▲ | Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which essential Liberty you think Chinese people do not have? | | |
| ▲ | Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom from abitrary detention, just to name a few. Of course some speech, association and rule of law (as opposed to rule by law) is enjoyed by most people. But it is indisputable that China restricts speech and association severely, and silences "troublemakers" arbitrarily. Let me preempt the inevitable replies: this comment is about China and China alone. It it factual irrespective of what freedoms may or may not be enjoyed anywhere else including the US. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I wasn't saying China has those freedoms, just that China has at least as much of them as the US. Just today - or was it yesterday - an ICE agent peered into a woman's driver side window and shot her three times point blank. Because of her speech. Where's the freedom there? | | |
| ▲ | Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Which essential Liberty you think Chinese people do not have? I believe I answered that question exactly. |
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| ▲ | Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Could you provide concrete examples? I do believe you might doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization PS: I'm Brazilian btw with no Chinese heritage, I do like the Chinese history and every country/population has it's own paradoxical times and events. | | |
| ▲ | Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A freedom does or does not exist. Some cultures have more freedom than others. If it's "Western" of me to admit I prefer more freedoms rather than less, I'll very proudly own up to that. But I don't know what that has got to do with the question I answered. As for concrete examples: #1: Freedom of speech -- one may not advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, criticize the ruling party, advocate for a change of government or political system in China, state that Taiwan is an independent nation, argue in favor of free and open elections in Hong Kong, advocate for workers' rights, talk about Tiananmen Square, talk about human rights abuses in Xinjiang, talk about human rights abuses in China at all... and the list goes on. Someone might manage to do so, sneaking past the firewall, but they are liable to be slammed with #3 below. #2: Freedom of association -- contrary to what one might expect in a country with "Socialism with Chinese characteristics", one may not unionize. In fact one may not set up any civil society group outside the approval of the CPC. I could editorialize on the reasons for this but I'll refrain in the interest of brevity. #3: Freedom from arbitrary detention -- China has a specific category of criminal offense just for this: being able to detain anyone at any time for any reason. The crime is "Picking quarrels and provoking trouble", and is used liberally on anyone who speaks out against the government and manages to catch their attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picking_quarrels_and_provoking... Now, Chinese people, and others, will argue that there's this reasona and that reason why it's good to restrict freedoms in this way. I obviously disagree. But what shouldn't be in dispute is the fact that these freedoms are very much restricted in China. |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | irishcoffee 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Freedom of information is the first thing that comes to mind. | | |
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| ▲ | kachapopopow 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the chinese are definitely going to pull ahead, but we're definitely not going to see US fall like that. it's too easy to assassinate world leaders for a state sponsored government so you have to beg the question: why has nobody done it? the relative peace we have is built on top of mutual destruction and realistically US won't fall without taking most of the world with it. the reason I believe it's easy because US SS seemingly lost their edge as there haven't been many real threats against the president to begin with. I just can't imagine that there is much any government could do against a 400-500km/h drone specialized for a 20 second mission from being to accomplish the goal, the world leader would be dead by the time anyone even registered that there is a threat. |
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| ▲ | JCattheATM 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > but we're definitely not going to see US fall like that. We're already seeing that. You probably live in a coastal city, and so might be unaware of how just undeveloped so much of the country is. Look at things like literacy levels and political unrest as well. The US is absolutely falling, it can be saved but not with the way half the country seems to vote. | | |
| ▲ | kachapopopow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | wow, you're way off the mark - I am sitting in a soviet building enjoying life for less than the minimum wage at times just because I can and I am very well aware of large parts of the US since I am friends with at least one person from every state. but to get to the actual point: US is big, like very big and dominated by the strongest propaganda machine in the world: https://youtu.be/BY9uuxC_YAQ | | |
| ▲ | JCattheATM 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't really understand the relevance of what you've said except that you think I'm off the mark. You really don't think the US has had a steep decline over the last 2 decades in quality of life for most people? I'm not talking about people with six figure tech jobs in big cities. | | |
| ▲ | kachapopopow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | ah I guess I should have been clearer: I am friends with a lot of people - sure it's pretty bad in some states, but america is huge and nothing really changed for them within the decade. I can't really speak for decades, none of us have been alive that long to live that difference - people generally live wealthier lives than 2 decades ago, at the cost of losing the ability to repair your own shit, being locked into buying new things when old ones work fine. but that's the failure of capitalism and legislation to subdue these issues. What I am really trying to say is that I believe in time everything will be okay as long as we manage to survive the hardest challenge we have right now: AI causing major distruption in every single business causing further imbalance between people and coorperations. | | |
| ▲ | JCattheATM 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > america is huge and nothing really changed for them within the decade. People don't necessarily notice gradual changes. We have objective measures to show things have changed. > I can't really speak for decades, none of us have been alive that long to live that difference There's plenty of 50 and 60, even 70 year olds on this site... > people generally live wealthier lives than 2 decades ago Some people do. One of the biggest changes has been the continued erosion of the middle class. > What I am really trying to say is that I believe in time everything will be okay as long as we manage to survive the hardest challenge we have right now: AI causing major distruption in every single business causing further imbalance between people and coorperations. AI is nothing but a distraction. The problem is the ignorance of half the voting population who continually votes against their own interests out fear fueled by misinformation. |
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| ▲ | dnautics 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the chinese are definitely going to pull ahead Are they? Please don't forget at least 50M Chinese in abject poverty and a demographic crisis barreling towards them that is not avoidable unless they develop cloning vats that can rapidly age a clone to productive adulthood in a compressed timeframe. | | |
| ▲ | kachapopopow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | the heartbreaking truth is that those 50m people do not matter or at the very least the government is not interested in them. | | |
| ▲ | dnautics 2 days ago | parent [-] | | "do not matter". I mean idk, some of them burn down factories when they don't get paid. | | |
| ▲ | kachapopopow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | nothing a genocide or two can't solve (based on a real story) the governments have grown too powerful to be overthrown by people, and yes I do realize that the military itself is made out of people (for now), but in a way they are brainwashed? to follow orders from above. |
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| ▲ | heraldgeezer 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >They have much higher standards of living Are you serious? You cannot be. A poor person in the USA has way more money than EU or China. They just love to complain on Reddit. The rest of your post is delusion. What is your nationality? |
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| ▲ | Bengalilol 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Partly true but misleading. On average, the USA is significantly richer than China and most EU countries, and this shows up in macro indicators such as GDP per capita, median income, and average wealth per adult. Even people at the lower end of the income distribution in the US often have higher nominal incomes than poor people in China, and sometimes higher than in poorer EU countries. Compared to China in particular, a poor person in the US usually has access to far more money and material goods. However, Europe is not a single comparison point. In many Western European countries (France, Germany, Scandinavia), poor people often have similar or even better effective living standards than poor Americans once public services are included. Free or heavily subsidized healthcare, education, housing support, and transport can compensate for lower cash income and raise real living conditions.
Finally, inequality matters. The US has much higher income inequality and weaker social safety nets than most of Europe. This means that while the country is richer overall, being poor in the US can be harsher than being poor in many EU countries, especially when accounting for healthcare costs and financial risk. So the claim is broadly true when comparing the US to China, but not universally true when comparing the US to Europe, and it oversimplifies what “having more money” actually means. ps: I live in Switzerland and it is a whole different story. | | |
| ▲ | heraldgeezer 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes I am Swedish actually so I know all this. My college was free etc. Good public transport. BUT I would rather be poor in the USA than poor in China. This was the point. EU is best ofc. |
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