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khaki54 2 days ago

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

immibis 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The key words are "essential" and "temporary" - the nouns can be replaced with pretty much anything.

In what way do you think the USA is currently doing better than China? Yes you can talk about Tiananmen Square, obviously, but there are other things you can't talk about.

energy123 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Safety protects liberty, otherwise you get public safety authoritarians like Duterte or Bukele. This is not advocacy for authoritarianism. It's advocacy for assertive liberalism that is effective at delivering a core human need in order to protect liberalism from itself.

Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Which essential Liberty you think Chinese people do not have?

Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom from abitrary detention, just to name a few.

Of course some speech, association and rule of law (as opposed to rule by law) is enjoyed by most people. But it is indisputable that China restricts speech and association severely, and silences "troublemakers" arbitrarily.

Let me preempt the inevitable replies: this comment is about China and China alone. It it factual irrespective of what freedoms may or may not be enjoyed anywhere else including the US.

immibis 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I wasn't saying China has those freedoms, just that China has at least as much of them as the US. Just today - or was it yesterday - an ICE agent peered into a woman's driver side window and shot her three times point blank. Because of her speech. Where's the freedom there?

Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Which essential Liberty you think Chinese people do not have?

I believe I answered that question exactly.

Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Could you provide concrete examples? I do believe you might doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization

PS: I'm Brazilian btw with no Chinese heritage, I do like the Chinese history and every country/population has it's own paradoxical times and events.

Arn_Thor 2 days ago | parent [-]

A freedom does or does not exist. Some cultures have more freedom than others. If it's "Western" of me to admit I prefer more freedoms rather than less, I'll very proudly own up to that. But I don't know what that has got to do with the question I answered.

As for concrete examples:

#1: Freedom of speech -- one may not advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, criticize the ruling party, advocate for a change of government or political system in China, state that Taiwan is an independent nation, argue in favor of free and open elections in Hong Kong, advocate for workers' rights, talk about Tiananmen Square, talk about human rights abuses in Xinjiang, talk about human rights abuses in China at all... and the list goes on. Someone might manage to do so, sneaking past the firewall, but they are liable to be slammed with #3 below.

#2: Freedom of association -- contrary to what one might expect in a country with "Socialism with Chinese characteristics", one may not unionize. In fact one may not set up any civil society group outside the approval of the CPC. I could editorialize on the reasons for this but I'll refrain in the interest of brevity.

#3: Freedom from arbitrary detention -- China has a specific category of criminal offense just for this: being able to detain anyone at any time for any reason. The crime is "Picking quarrels and provoking trouble", and is used liberally on anyone who speaks out against the government and manages to catch their attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picking_quarrels_and_provoking...

Now, Chinese people, and others, will argue that there's this reasona and that reason why it's good to restrict freedoms in this way. I obviously disagree. But what shouldn't be in dispute is the fact that these freedoms are very much restricted in China.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
irishcoffee 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Freedom of information is the first thing that comes to mind.

Xunjin 2 days ago | parent [-]

I agree that they do control information, but we also face the paradox that laws in the West do very little to regulate social media, and even the current US administration threatens to impose tariffs to EU [0].

Even Google and other big techs did a gigantic lobby against it in Brazil[1].

The appointed lawyer by Twitter, in 2023, even said in a meeting with the Brazil Minister of Justice: “That the Brazilian laws did not follow their Terms of Use”[2]. In the previous week there was a massacre at childcare which killed 4 children[3].

What the government asked at that time was to delete/suspend related accounts that promoted this type of crime.

0. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/are-tariffs-big-techs-new...

1. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/09/us-tec...

2. https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/noticia/2023/05/nao-estou-...

3. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Blumenau