> The hyperbole is a little big too far fetched.

Sure.

Though I think the EU is thinking that blowing up critical energy pipelines and seriously damaging Europes economy through the resulting much higher energy prices wasn't too friendly.

All to boost US energy exports, make US manufacturing more competitive and met US geopolitical goals.

ie that's not declaring war - but's it's a pretty big FU wake up call. Turning a blind eye when the US treats central and south american countries with contempt is one thing, but it's a bit of a shock when it openly does the same to you - cf Greenland as another example.

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f1shy 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Though I think the EU is thinking that blowing up critical energy pipelines and seriously damaging Europes economy through the resulting much higher energy prices wasn't too friendly.

Although if you ask "cui bono?" there are some pointers in that direction, is not proven, and there are also pointers in other directions. I refrain of accusing without reasonable proof.

>All to boost US energy exports, make US manufacturing more competitive and met US geopolitical goals.

I cannot blame them for that. Of course anything they do is in their benefit. Some may argue, is precisely what the government should do. It is clear, that while the action in Venezuela was against a very shady government, was done thinking in US interests (as can be clearly seen by titles as "Trump Says Venezuela Will Buy Only US-Made Products From Oil Deal Proceeds").

So yes, they do all in own interest, and the EU isn't and wasn't very different. Alone if you consider the long colonialism years. Now the EU is acting poorly, but I would say not out of altruism, but incompetence and bureaucratic stagnation.

I will not say "is impossible" they do the same in Greenland... For good reason I think. BUT comparing the 2 is also farfetched. I know plenty of people from Venezuela, and unless you were part of the government, you were strongly against it. I know no venezuelan (from the at least 100 I know) that wanted Maduro there. And many are still in party modus. Granted, I know primarily expats, so, survivor bias may apply... but still.

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RGamma 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Ruling by oppression does not make you friends until eventually you may find yourself alone. The US government and hyperscalers may think that in the coming decades they can take on the rest of the world on their own, and I'm not looking forward to that future materializing.

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coliveira 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So yes, they do all in own interest, and the EU isn't and wasn't very different.

Of course, what connects Europe and the USA forever is that they think the same in these matters. No one can trust them.

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DrScientist 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Granted, I know primarily expats, so, survivor bias may apply... but still.

Exactly - the views of people who have left Cuba, Venezuelan, or Iran are typically not representative - by definition they chose or were forced to leave.

Indeed if they have left - why are their views informing armed intervention - should Italian American's force political change through American might in Italy over the people that still live in Italy?

It's all just performative - bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela - indeed he has just come out against fresh elections - all he cares about is the flow of money and resources.

But this isn't something unique to Trump - just look at the history if US meddling in central and south america. Democracy and the will of the people ( whatever that is ) isn't the driving factor.

BTW totally accept Europe has a very similar past, and to some extent present - and you could argue that the fact that the EU is less involved in this sort of thing these days is a question of capacity rather than desire.

However that's rather my point - in a globalised world - the differences in power will equalise meaning whether countries like it or not just going around doing what you want is going to no longer be an option - and it's better to gracefully accept that and adjust rather than rage against the dying of the light and inviting in the four horsemen.

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f1shy 2 days ago | parent [-]

>> they chose or were forced to leave.

Again, that is not speaking well of the acting government. Is just not normal that so much people choose or even worst are forced to leave. That just does not speak well of that regime. Does it? So dismissing their opinions does not seem to be a useful reasoning. I know from friends of mine in many different places in Latin America (mind you, in both "left" (brasil/MX) and "right" (Arg/ Chile) countries) that there are literally thousands of venezuelans in exile. That is not normal and is not a good sign.

> bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela

Totally agree. But as I said, is not "Trump". Is not a person, is institutional. Which you could reasonably argue is much worse. But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention...

My way of seeing it is: we have to wait to be able to weight the prons and cons. WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out...

	▲	DrScientist 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> Again, that is not speaking well of the acting government. Being forced to leave in itself is not a bad sign - do people not flee the US to Mexico to avoid justice? Perhaps they were part of an old corrupt cabal running the country for their own benefit? Or perhaps they had to leave because of dire economic circumstances largely caused by foreign sanctions rather than internal mismanagement? Let's be clear I'm not a fan of the current governments in the countries I've listed, but then I'm not a fan of Trump either. In neither case does it justify military invention - I'm not advocating abducting Trump to free the America people from a leader who sends troops on to the streets in cities of his political opponents.... and openly ignores the constitution. > But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention... The whole point of democracy is you don't have people like you and me making arbitrary choices from afar based on hearsay - and if there isn't democracy - in my view it's still a democratic choice to decide whether the cost of a rebellion is worth the price. Outside countries shouldn't be making that choice for other people ( We decided that your son dying is a price worth paying for a change in political system ). Note that doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for your values and be assertive - and driving very hard to ensure no military inbalances. However that's a long way from self-interested coups under pre-texts. > WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out... A closer comparison would be the 1953 coup to remove a democratically elected government of Iran in an attempt by UK/US to get back control of the oil. The installation of a non-democratic autocrat who was friendly to the west directly lead to revolution and the situation today.

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amrocha 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s disingenuous to talk about Maduros popularity without mentioning the brutal sanctions placed on it by the US, which caused the crisis in the first place.

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patmorgan23 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Venezuela was declining and authoritarian long before the US implemented sanctions.

	▲	amrocha a day ago \| parent [-]
		Maduro won fair elections in 2013 observed by neutral observers. Sanctions were placed by Obama in 2014.

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f1shy a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Literally all the people I know from Venezuela, even supporters of Maduro will tell you it started long before. Like 20 to 30 years ago. Even by the period of Chavez, or even before that. I think you don’t know very much about Venezuela. And is very disingenuous state opinions without enough knowledge and lots of ideology.

	▲	amrocha a day ago \| parent [-]
		Ok, it sounds like you know biased people. Chavez was loved by the people, and Maduro inherited his legacy.