> Granted, I know primarily expats, so, survivor bias may apply... but still.

Exactly - the views of people who have left Cuba, Venezuelan, or Iran are typically not representative - by definition they chose or were forced to leave.

Indeed if they have left - why are their views informing armed intervention - should Italian American's force political change through American might in Italy over the people that still live in Italy?

It's all just performative - bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela - indeed he has just come out against fresh elections - all he cares about is the flow of money and resources.

But this isn't something unique to Trump - just look at the history if US meddling in central and south america. Democracy and the will of the people ( whatever that is ) isn't the driving factor.

BTW totally accept Europe has a very similar past, and to some extent present - and you could argue that the fact that the EU is less involved in this sort of thing these days is a question of capacity rather than desire.

However that's rather my point - in a globalised world - the differences in power will equalise meaning whether countries like it or not just going around doing what you want is going to no longer be an option - and it's better to gracefully accept that and adjust rather than rage against the dying of the light and inviting in the four horsemen.

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f1shy 2 days ago | parent [-]

>> they chose or were forced to leave.

Again, that is not speaking well of the acting government. Is just not normal that so much people choose or even worst are forced to leave. That just does not speak well of that regime. Does it? So dismissing their opinions does not seem to be a useful reasoning. I know from friends of mine in many different places in Latin America (mind you, in both "left" (brasil/MX) and "right" (Arg/ Chile) countries) that there are literally thousands of venezuelans in exile. That is not normal and is not a good sign.

> bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela

Totally agree. But as I said, is not "Trump". Is not a person, is institutional. Which you could reasonably argue is much worse. But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention...

My way of seeing it is: we have to wait to be able to weight the prons and cons. WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out...

	▲	DrScientist 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> Again, that is not speaking well of the acting government. Being forced to leave in itself is not a bad sign - do people not flee the US to Mexico to avoid justice? Perhaps they were part of an old corrupt cabal running the country for their own benefit? Or perhaps they had to leave because of dire economic circumstances largely caused by foreign sanctions rather than internal mismanagement? Let's be clear I'm not a fan of the current governments in the countries I've listed, but then I'm not a fan of Trump either. In neither case does it justify military invention - I'm not advocating abducting Trump to free the America people from a leader who sends troops on to the streets in cities of his political opponents.... and openly ignores the constitution. > But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention... The whole point of democracy is you don't have people like you and me making arbitrary choices from afar based on hearsay - and if there isn't democracy - in my view it's still a democratic choice to decide whether the cost of a rebellion is worth the price. Outside countries shouldn't be making that choice for other people ( We decided that your son dying is a price worth paying for a change in political system ). Note that doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for your values and be assertive - and driving very hard to ensure no military inbalances. However that's a long way from self-interested coups under pre-texts. > WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out... A closer comparison would be the 1953 coup to remove a democratically elected government of Iran in an attempt by UK/US to get back control of the oil. The installation of a non-democratic autocrat who was friendly to the west directly lead to revolution and the situation today.