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whatever1 2 days ago

The whole point of good engineering was not about just hitting the hard specs, but also have extendable, readable, maintainable code.

But if today it’s so cheap to generate new code that meets updated specs, why care about the quality of the code itself?

Maybe the engineering work today is to review specs and tests and let LLMs do whatever behind the scenes to hit the specs. If the specs change, just start from scratch.

majormajor 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

"Write the specs and let the outsourced labor hit them" is not a new tale.

Let's assume the LLM agents can write tests for, and hit, specs better and cheaper than the outsourced offshore teams could.

So let's assume now you can have a working product that hits your spec without understanding the code. How many bugs and security vulnerabilities have slipped through "well tested" code because of edge cases of certain input/state combinations? Ok, throw an LLM at the codebase to scan for vulnerabilities; ok, throw another one at it to ensure no nasty side effects of the changes that one made; ok, add some functionality and a new set of tests and let it churn through a bunch of gross code changes needed to bolt that functionality into the pile of spaghetti...

How long do you want your critical business logic relying on not-understood code with "100% coverage" (of lines of code and spec'd features) but super-low coverage of actual possible combinations of input+machine+system state? How big can that codebase get before "rewrite the entire world to pass all the existing specs and tests" starts getting very very very slow?

We've learned MANY hard lessons about security, extensibility, and maintainability of multi-million-LOC-or-larger long-lived business systems and those don't go away just because you're no longer reading the code that's making you the money. They might even get more urgent. Is there perhaps a reason Google and Amazon didn't just hire 10x the number of people at 1/10th the salary to replace the vast majority of their engineering teams year ago?

andrekandre 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

  > let LLMs do whatever behind the scenes to hit the specs
assuming for the sake of argument that's completely true, then what happens to "competitive advantage" in this scenario?

it gets me thinking: if anyone can vibe from spec, whats stopping company a (or even user a) from telling an llm agent "duplicate every aspect of this service in python and deploy it to my aws account xyz"...

in that scenario, why even have companies?

mskogly 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s all fun and games vibecoding until you A) have customers who depend on your product B) it breaks or the one person prompting and has access to the servers and api keys gets incapacited (or just bored).

Sure we can vibecode oneoff projects that does something useful (my fav is browser extensions) but as soon as we ask others to use our code on a regular basis the technical debt clock starts running. And we all know how fast dependencies in a project breaks.

nl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can do this for many things now.

Walmart, McDonalds, Nike - none really have any secrets about what they do. There is nothing stopping someone from copying them - except that businesses are big, unwieldy things.

When software becomes cheap companies compete on their support. We see this for Open Source software now.

gf000 2 days ago | parent [-]

These are businesses with extra-large capital requirements. You ain't replicating them, because you don't have the money, and they can easily strangle you with their money as you start out.

Software is different, you need very very little to start, historically just your own skills and time. Thes latter two may see some changes with LLMs.

TeodorDyakov 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

How conveniently you forgot about the most impotant things for a product to make money - marketing and the network effect....

gf000 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't see the relevance to the discussion. Marketing is not significantly different for a shop and a online-only business.

Having to buy a large property, fulfilling every law, etc is materially different than buying a laptop and renting a cloud instance. Almost everyone has the material capacity to do the latter, but almost no one has the privilege for the former.

nl 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is exactly my point.

whatever1 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The business is identifying the correct specs and filter the customer needs/requests so that the product does not become irrelevant.

ehnto 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Okay, we will copy that version of the product too.

There is more to it than the code and software provided in most cases I feel.

majormajor 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think `andrekandre is right in this hypothetical.

Who'd pay for brand new Photoshop with a couple new features and improvements if LLM-cloned Photoshop-from-three-months-ago is free?

The first few iterations of this cloud be massively consumer friendly for anything without serious cloud infra costs. Cheap clones all around. Like generic drugs but without the cartel-like control of manufacturing.

Business after that would be dramatically different, though. Differentiating yourself from the willing-to-do-it-for-near-zero-margin competitors to produce something new to bring in money starts to get very hard. Can you provide better customer support? That could be hard, everyone's gonna have a pretty high baseline LLM-support-agent already... and hiring real people instead could dramatically increase the price difference you're trying to justify... Similarly for marketing or outreach etc; how are you going to cut through the AI-agent-generated copycat spam that's gonna be pounding everyone when everyone and their dog has a clone of popular software and services?

Photoshop type things are probably a really good candidate for disruption like that because to a large extent every feature is independent. The noise reduction tool doesn't need API or SDK deps on the layer-opacity tool, for instance. If all your features are LLM balls of shit that doesn't necessarily reduce your ability to add new ones next to them, unlike in a more relational-database-based web app with cross-table/model dependencies, etc.

And in this "try out any new idea cheaply and throw crap against the wall and see what sticks" world "product managers" and "idea people" etc are all pretty fucked. Some of the infinite monkeys are going to periodically hit to gain temporary advantage, but good luck finding someone to pay you to be a "product visionary" in a world where any feature can be rolled out and tested in the market by a random dev in hours or days.

fragmede 2 days ago | parent [-]

OK, so what do people do? What do people need? People still need to eat, people get married and die, and all of the things surrounding that, all sorts of health related stuff. Nightlife events. Insurance. actuaries. Raising babies. What do you spend your fun money on?

People pay for things they use. If bespoke software is a thing you pick up at the mall at a kiosk next to Target we gotta figure something out.

PunchyHamster 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's all fine till money starts being involved and whoopsies cost more than few hours of fixing.