What about it is false?

- Illegal immigrants make the choice to come to the United States for financial enrichment: jobs, handouts. Are you disputing this?

- The United States has a notoriously weak social safety net relative to other countries: this is not a disputed fact.

- We do not have an unlimited amount of resources: sorry, this is reality, not socialist fantasyland.

- Most US citizens do not cover their overall per capita government tax expenditures: illegals certainly don't.

Illegal immigrants are absolutely a net-negative financial, quality-of-life drain on society at large.

▲

bakies 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They pay into social security when they have a job just like anyone else.

If it's weak social safety net then why would the immigrants choose this country for financial benefit? You're contradicting yourself right in the next bullet point.

They came here for the American Dream, which is about finding a new life free from oppression against all odds. It's what this country is built on. There's nothing more patriotic than welcoming the oppressed with open arms and helping them build a new life. It's what happened when your ancestors came to this country.

▲

15155 2 days ago | parent [-]

> They pay into social security when they have a job just like anyone else.

Really? None are paid under the table? Who pays their ER bills when they break their arm while performing illegal farm labor, for instance?

> If it's weak social safety net then why would the immigrants choose this country for financial benefit? You're contradicting yourself right in the next bullet point.

Because it's better than from wherever they came? These goals aren't incompatible. Jobs are reason enough, free shit is icing on the cake.

> They came here for the American Dream,

Breaking the law in the process, and pissing on everyone who bothered to obtain it legally.

> It's what happened when your ancestors came to this country.

My ancestors weren't given free shit upon arrival - you can have a welfare system or open borders, not both.

▲

mktk1001 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Legally, you're required to pay taxes even if you're getting underpaid. Many undocumented people use ITINs. Your whole argument is based on false assumptions.

	▲	15155 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Gosh golly gee, someone who decided to break the law to enter wouldn't possibly break other laws for their own benefit, would they!? I don't care if "many" people do anything: if they are here without status, they should be removed post haste.

▲

bakies 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

no citizens are paid under the table?

who pays bills of citizens w/o insurance that are rushed to the emergency room?

> My ancestors weren't given free shit upon arrival

you sure about that?

We're all the same people, stop hating.

▲

15155 2 days ago | parent [-]

> no citizens are paid under the table?

Proportionately far fewer, obviously? What? Are you going to honestly try and argue in good faith that per capita, people already breaking laws with no legal means to work are paying taxes at the same rate? Either way: it doesn't matter!

> who pays bills of citizens w/o insurance that are rushed to the emergency room?

Guess what? - and this might be a hard pill to swallow: we don't owe foreigners anything.

Your argument distills down to: "there are some citizen lawbreakers, too, so a few more shouldn't hurt!"

> you sure about that?

Social security among other things didn't exist, so, yeah, I am very sure about that.

> We're all the same people, stop hating.

Not wanting to finance unskilled lawbreakers at the expense of my own people is not "hate" - sorry!

▲

bakies 2 days ago | parent [-]

> we don't owe foreigners anything

This isn't true, it's a pillar of the USA to harbor refugees and welcome immigrants. It's our entire history. It's our entire identity.

> Proportionately far fewer, obviously

I dont think so. There's a lot of people in this country, far more citizens than illegal immigrants.

> Not wanting to finance unskilled lawbreakers

capital punishment for every crime if you dont have a degree? what are you arguing?

yes, the argument is immigrants and citizens aren't different. we're all people

▲

15155 2 days ago | parent [-]

> This isn't true, it's a pillar of the USA to harbor refugees and welcome immigrants. It's our entire history. It's our entire identity.

All of these dreamy tales are from before the New Deal for a reason.

> I dont think so. There's a lot of people in this country, far more citizens than illegal immigrants.

The word "proportionately" means something: if you believe that the same percentage of illegal immigrants pay taxes as legal citizens, you are definitively wrong. Legal immigrants probably pay taxes at a higher rate (by systemic design), but there's simply no way this is true for border hoppers.

> capital punishment for every crime if you dont have a degree? what are you arguing?

Deportation is not capital punishment!

▲

goatlover 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Deportation is not capital punishment!

And how well do deported people fair? Sometimes they'll be returned to dangerous situations they were fleeing, sometimes to impoverished areas, sometimes even to prisons. I'm guessing some do end up dead. Even for those who manage, some might never see family members again.

▲

bakies 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

My point was "your people" are financing unskilled lawbreakers with or without immigrants. Also "your people" are immigrants.

▲

15155 2 days ago | parent [-]

> financing unskilled lawbreakers with or without immigrants

So why invite more?

> Also "your people" are immigrants

Stop conflating legal and illegal immigrants: this strategy doesn't work as well in writing.

	▲	bakies 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		dont act like you care about laws

▲

array_key_first 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Illegal immigrants are absolutely a net-negative financial, quality-of-life drain on society at large.

I mean - source? Or are we just talking out of our asses?

Just intuitively, most immigrants pay taxes because they work regular jobs. And they're exempt from most social safety nets, too. How are they a net negative? Aren't we, basically, exploiting them, and not the other way around?

I live in Texas, and looking around, I'm gonna tell you right now it's not fatass white people pouring pavement or building homes. It's laborers who, I'm assuming, may or may not have immigrated illegally from Latin America and may or may not be paid a fair wage.

▲

15155 2 days ago | parent [-]

> most immigrants pay taxes because they work regular jobs

Source? Or are we just talking out of our asses? "Most" means something.

> And they're exempt from most social safety nets, too

Emergency rooms, census, etc. all still apply.

> How are they a net negative?

- Remittances directly take money out of our economy

- Per capita, as with most citizens, they cannot and do not pay their percentage of the government tax burden

- Free use of our social safety nets - ERs, many local government services, schools, etc.

- No community ties: if an illegal immigrant messes up, they can just move on the same way they came in.

- Directly stress an already-strained housing supply (inb4 'they do construction so they increase the supply!')

> Aren't we, basically, exploiting them

Yes! This is bad and needs to stop: by exploiting them (slave labor), we're additionally harming our most vulnerable part of the population - our own unskilled/impoverished workers.

> I'm gonna tell you right now it's not fatass white people pouring pavement or building homes

Because they are being undercut by illegal labor with no protections and lower wages? How is "we need slave labor!" a valid argument?

	▲	array_key_first 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		I don't think slave labor is good or desirable, but I do think that, obviously, that's not exploitative for the slaver. The slaver is not the one being exploited in that relationship. I just don't see how they're a strain on us, like, at all. And I actually live in Texas. Yes there's a lot of theories and conjecture, but I think most of it is, frankly, made up. It's trivial, truly trivial, to eradicate illegal immigration for good. Just make a law where if you hire an illegal immigrant, your executives go to jail. The problem would solve itself expiditiously. But the GOP would never propose anything close to that, because they don't want to reduce illegal immigrantation. They don't. It's one of their greatest vectors of exploitation and one of the few factors that makes some red states economically viable. So, if you're operating under the assumption ANY of this is for the purpose of reducing illegal immigration, you've been conned.