| ▲ | arjie 3 days ago |
| I think a lot of us just discovered that the actual programming isn't the fun part for us. It turns out I don't like writing code as much as I thought. I like solving my problems. The activation energy for a lot of things was much higher than it is now. Now it's pretty low. That's great for me. Baby's sleeping, 3d printer is rolling, and I get to make a little bit of progress on something super quick. It's fantastic. |
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| ▲ | blitz_skull 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| This 1000x! I had a bit of an identity crisis with AI first landed and started producing good code. “If I’m not the man who can type quickly, accurately, and build working programs… WHO AM I?” But as you pointed out, I quickly realized I was never that guy. I was the guy who made problems go away, usually with code. Now I can make so many problems go away, it feels like cheating. As it turns out, writing code isn’t super useful. It’s the application of the code, the judgement of which problems to solve and how to solve them, that truly mattered. And that sparks a LOT of joy. |
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| ▲ | spankibalt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ragequittah 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I imagine this same argument happening when people stopped using machine code and assembly en masse and started using FORTRAN or COBOL. You don't really know what you're doing unless you're spending the effort I spent! | | |
| ▲ | spankibalt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > "I imagine this same argument happening when people stopped using machine code and assembly en masse and started using FORTRAN or COBOL." Yeah, certainly. But since this has nothing to do with my argument, which was an answer to the very existential question of a (postulated) non-coder, and not a comment on a forgotten pissing contest between coders, it's utterly irrelevant. :( | | |
| ▲ | framapotari 3 days ago | parent [-] | | This is quite funny when you created the pissing contest between "coders" and "non-coders" in this thread. Those labels seem very important to you. | | |
| ▲ | spankibalt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I didn't "create" the pissing contest, I merely pointed it out in someone else's drivel. And of course, these labels are important to me for (precise) language defines the boundaries of my world; coder vs. non-coder, medico vs. quack, writer vs. analphabet, truth vs. lie, etc. Elementary. | | |
| ▲ | cthalupa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I find it quite interesting that you categorize non-coders the same as quacks, analphabets, and lies. I would never consider myself a coder - though I can and have written quite a lot of code over the years - because it has always been a means to the ends for me. I don't particularly enjoy writing code. Programming isn't a passion. I can and have built working programs without a line of copy and pasted code off stack overflow or using an LLM. Because I needed to to solve a problem. But there are things I would call myself, things I do and enjoy and am good at. But I wouldn't position people who can't do those things as being the same as a quack. You also claim to not be the one that started the pissing contest, but you called someone who claims to have written plenty of code themselves a coding-illiterate just because now they'd rather use an LLM than do it themselves. I suppose you could claim they are lying about it, or some no true scottsman type argument, but that seems silly. You basically took some people talking about their own opinions on what they find enjoyable, and saying that AI-driven coding scratches that itch for them even more than writing code itself does, and then began to be quite hostile towards them with boatloads of denigrating language and derision. | | |
| ▲ | spankibalt 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > "I find it quite interesting that you categorize non-coders the same as quacks, analphabets, and lies." I categorized them not as "the same", but as examples of concept-delineating polar opposites. This as answer to somebody who essentially trotted out the "but they're just labels!1!!" line, which was already considered intellectually lazy before it was turned into a sad meme by people who married their bongs back in the 90s. > "I would never consider myself a coder - though I can and have written quite a lot of code over the years [...]" Good for you. A coder, to me, is simply somebody who can produce working programs on their own and has the neccessary occupational (self-) respect. This fans out into several degrees of capabilities, of course. > "[...] but you called someone who claims to have written plenty of code themselves a coding-illiterate just because now they'd rather use an LLM than do it themselves. " No. I simply answered this one question: > “If I’m not the man who can [...] build working programs… WHO AM I?” Aside from that I reflected on an insulting(ly daft) but extremely common attitude amongst sloperators, especially on parasocial media platforms: > "As it turns out, writing code isn’t super useful." Imagine I go to some other SIG to say shit like this: As it turns out, [reading and writing words/playing or operating an instrument or tool/drawing/calculating/...] isn’t "super useful". Suckers! I'd expect to get properly mocked and then banned. > "You basically took some people talking about their own opinions on what they find enjoyable, [...]" Congratulations, you're just the next strawmen salesman. For the last time, bambini: I don't care if this guy uses LLMs and enjoys it... for that was never the focus of my argument at all. |
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| ▲ | jtbayly 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You definitely completely misconstrued what was said and meant. It appears you have yet to grapple with the question asked. And I suspect you would be helped by doing so. Let me restate the question for you: If actually writing code can be done without you or any coworker now, by AI, what is your purpose? | | | |
| ▲ | ch4s3 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Anyone who can’t read Proust and write a compelling essay about the themes is illiterate! | | |
| ▲ | spankibalt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | One day you actually might discover there's different levels of literacy. Like there's something between 0 and 255! Here's a pointer: Not being able to read (terminus technicus: analphabet) makes you a non-reader, just as not being able to cobble together a working proggie on your own merits makes you a non-coder. Man alive... | | |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s possible to be someone who’s very good at writing quality programs but still enjoy delegating as much of that as possible to AI to focus on other things. | | |
| ▲ | spankibalt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > "It’s possible to be someone who’s very good at writing quality programs but still enjoy delegating as much of that as possible to AI to focus on other things." That's true, Jimbo. And besides the point, because: 1. It wasn't about someone who's very good at writing quality programs, but someone who perceives themselves as someone who "is not the man who can build working programs". Do you comprehend the difference? 2. The enjoyment of using slopware wasn't part of the argument (see my answer to the question). That's not something I remotely care about. For the question my answer referred to, please see the cited text before the question mark. <3 3. People who define the very solution to the problem as "isn't super useful" do at least two things: They misunderstood, or misunderstand, their capabilities in problem solving/solutions, and most likely (have) delude(d) themselves, and... They look down on people who actually have done, do, and will do the legwork to solve these very problems ("Your work isn't super useful"). Back in the day we called 'em lamers and/or posers. I hope that clears things up. | | |
| ▲ | cthalupa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > 1. It wasn't about someone who's very good at writing quality programs, but someone who perceives themselves as someone who "is not the man who can build working programs". Do you comprehend the difference? For someone who has taken heavy enjoyment in likening people to analphabets you seem to have entirely misunderstood (or if you understood, heavily misconstrued) the initial point of the person you are responding to. The entire point is that their identity WAS someone who is the man who can build those programs, and now AI was threatening to do the same thing. Unless you a presupposing that anyone who can be happy with the output of LLMs for writing code simply is impossible of having the ability to write quality code themselves. Which would be silly. |
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| ▲ | jtbayly 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly. And I was never particularly good at coding, either. Pairings with Gemini to finally figure out how to decompile an old Java app so I can make little changes to my user profile and some action files? That was fun! And I was never going to be able to figure out how to do it on my own. I had tried! |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Fewer things sound less interesting to me than that. | | |
| ▲ | jtbayly 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Fair enough. But that particular could be anything that has been bothering you but you didn’t have the time or expertise to fix yourself. I wanted that fixed, and I had given up on ever seeing it fixed. Suddenly, in only two hours, I had it fixed. And I learned a lot in the process, too! | |
| ▲ | cmwelsh 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Fewer things sound less interesting to me than that. To each their own! I think the market for folks who understand their own problems is exploding! It’s free money. |
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| ▲ | popalchemist 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Literally shipping a vide-coded feature as my baby sleeps, while reading this comment thread. It's the wild west again. I love it. |
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| ▲ | codr7 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Maybe you can tell us the name of the software so we can avoid it? | | |
| ▲ | mrkramer 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft....they literally all have the vibe coded code; it's not about vibe coded or not, it is about how well the code is designed, efficient and bug free. Ofc pro coders can debug it and fix it better than some amateur coder but still LLMs are so valuable. I let Gemini vibe code little web projects for me and it serves me well. Although you have to explain everything step by step to it and sometimes when it fixes one bug, it accidently introduces another. But we fix bugs together and learn together. And btw when Gemini fixes bugs, it puts comments in the code on how the particular bug was fixed. | | | |
| ▲ | popalchemist 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a personal project. No need to be a dick. | | |
| ▲ | codr7 a day ago | parent [-] | | Presenting AI slop as software is about as as big as it gets. |
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| ▲ | RicoElectrico 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| This. Busy-beavering is why the desktop Linux is where it is - rewriting stuff, making it "elegant" while breaking backwards compatibility - instead of focusing on the outcome. |
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| ▲ | int_19h 3 days ago | parent [-] | | macOS breaks backwards compatibility all the time, and yet... | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Other than security-related changes, as a user, I find macOS to be quite generous about its evolution, supporting deprecated APIs for many years, etc. SIP and the transition to a read-only system volume are the only two things that I remember broke things that I noticed. It’s not Windows-level of backwards compatibility, but it’s quite good overall from the user side. |
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