| ▲ | crote 10 hours ago |
| > Why buy this book when ChatGPT can generate the same style of tutorial for ANY project that is customized to you? Isn't it obvious? Because the ChatGPT output wouldn't be reviewed! You buy books like these exactly because they are written by a professional, who has taken the time to divide it up into easily digestible chunks which form a coherent narrative, with runnable intermediate stages in-between. For example, I expect a raytracing project to start with simple ray casting of single-color objects. After that it can add things like lights and Blinn-Phong shading, progress with Whitted-style recursive raytracing for the shiny reflections and transparent objects, then progress to modern path tracing with things like BRDFs, and end up with BVHs to make it not horribly slow. You can stop at any point and still end up with a functional raytracer, and the added value of each step is immediately obvious to the reader. There's just no way in hell ChatGPT at its current level is going to guide you flawlessly through all of that if you start with a simple "I want to build a raytracer" prompt! |
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| ▲ | zdragnar 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I heard the other day that LLMs won't replace writers, just mediocre writing. On the one hand, I can see the point- you'll never get chatgpt to come up with something on par with the venerable Crafting Interpreters. On the other hand, that means that all the hard-won lessons from writing poorly and improving with practice will be eliminated for most. When a computer can do something better than you right now, why bother trying to get better on your own? You never know if you'll end up surpassing it or not. Much easier to just put out mediocre crap and move on. Which, I think, means that we will see fewer and fewer masters of crafts as more people are content with drudgery. After all, it is cheaper and generally healthier and tastier to cook at home, yet for many people fast food or ordering out is a daily thing. |
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| ▲ | pinewurst 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I have to disagree. My brother-in-law has started to use ChatGPT to punch up his personal letters and they’ve become excerpts from lesser 70s sitcoms. From actually personal and relevant to disturbingly soulless. | | |
| ▲ | mikestorrent 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right? If I could get the same output by just talking to AI myself, what's the point of the human connection? Be something, be someone. Be wrong or a little rude from time to time, it's still more genuine. | | |
| ▲ | pinewurst 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | His last letter was an update on a serious health issue. I care. It's not supposed to be a yuck fest, especially inorganic AI sludge. | | |
| ▲ | alpinisme 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m honestly stunned that people use AI for personal communication. It seems so alien to me. | | |
| ▲ | shermantanktop 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You don’t think your comment would be improved by including an emoji of an alien? And maybe a telephone? The “tells” for AI are - as of this writing - very obvious. I assume they will disappear over time. | | |
| ▲ | foxglacier 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The obvious tells are obvious. The less obvious ones fool you so you don't learn them. There's no feedback. You sound like a schoolteacher saying "My students don't cheat on exams. I'd know if they did!" For starters, you can just tell the AI to write in the style of a HN commenter, or whatever. | | |
| ▲ | medstrom 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > tell the AI to write in the style of a HN commenter, or whatever. This might turn out to be one of those tricks like Ctrl+C Ctrl+V that surprisingly few people discover. |
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| ▲ | ok_dad 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your whole point is disproven by woodworking as a craft, and many other crafts for that matter. There are still craftspeople doing good work with wood even though IKEA and such have captured the furniture industry. There will still be fine programmers developing software by hand after AI is good enough for most. | | |
| ▲ | brailsafe 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There will still be fine programmers developing software by hand after AI is good enough for most. This fallacy seems to be brought up very frequently, that there are still blacksmiths; people who ride horses; people who use typewriters; even people who use fountain pens, but they don't really exist in any practical or economical sense outside of 10 years ago Portland, OR. No technological advancement that I'm aware of completely eliminates one's ability to pursue a discipline as a hobbyist or as a niche for rich people. It's rarely impossible, but I don't think that's ever anyone's point. Sometimes they even make a comeback, like vinyl records. The scope of the topic seems to be what the usual one is, which is the chain of incentives that enable the pursuit of something as a persuasive exchange of value, particularly that of a market that needs a certain amount of volume and doesn't have shady protectionism working for it like standard textbooks. With writing, like with other liberal arts, it's far from a new target of parental scrutiny, and it's my impression that those disciplines have long been the pursuit of people who can largely get away with not really needing a viable source of income, particularly during the apprentice and journeyman stages. Programming has been largely been exempt from that, but if I were in the midst of a traditional comp sci program, facing the existential dreads that are U.S and Canadian economies (at least), along with the effective collapse of a path to financial stability, I'd be stupid not to be considering a major pivot; to what, I don't know. | | |
| ▲ | satvikpendem 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No job is special, even though many programmers like to think of themselves as so. Everyone must learn to adapt to a changing world, just as they did a hundred years ago at the turn of the century. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is always said as if the buggy whip maker successfully transitioned to some new job. Please show me 10 actual examples of individuals in 1880 that successfully adapted to new jobs after the industrial revolution destroyed their old one, and what their life looked like before and after. 'Sure the 1880 start of the industrial revolution sucked, all the way through the end of WW2, but then we figured out jobs and middle class for a short time, so it doesn't matter you personally are being put at the 1880 starting point, because the 1950s had jobs'. Huh? | | |
| ▲ | wholinator2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't have a dog in this disagreement, but putting the bar at "dig up the personal details of 10 different individual people and the changing dynamics of their lives over decades _starting from 1880_" is a pretty insane ask I'd imagine. How many resources for reliable and accurate longitudinal case studies from the 19th century are there really? I suppose we could read a couple dozen books written around then but that's just making a satisfactory reply so prohibitively time intensive as to be impossible. | |
| ▲ | satvikpendem 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you think those people just starved to death? They had to find other jobs and they did. Now I'm sure I could find you 10 such examples if I trawl through historical records for a few hours but I'm not going to waste my time like that on New Year's Eve. Why are you constructing a strawman in your second paragraph? No one said or even implied that, you just made up your own quote you're attacking for something reason? |
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| ▲ | klik99 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There may not be many people whose professional job is using a typewriter, but there are still tons of writers. | |
| ▲ | uxcolumbo 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Things that won't be automated anytime soon, like plumbers or electricians. Or double down on applied ML? | | | |
| ▲ | jonnybgood 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This fallacy seems to be brought up very frequently, that there are still blacksmiths; people who ride horses; people who use typewriters; even people who use fountain pens, but they don't really exist in any practical or economical sense outside of 10 years ago Portland, OR. Did you respond with a fallacy of your own? I can only assume you’re not in or don’t have familiarity with those worlds and that has lead you to conclude they don’t exist in any practical or economical sense. It’s not difficult to look up those industries and their economic impact. Particularly horses and fountain pens. Or are you going by your own idea of practical or economical? | | |
| ▲ | phil21 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, horses and fountain pens do not exist in any real sense today vs. the economic impact they once had. They are niche hobbies that could disappear tomorrow and the economy wouldn't even notice. They used to be bedrocks where the world would stop turning without them overnight if they disappeared. The folks put out of work would be a rounding error on yearly layoffs if every horse and pen was zapped out of existence tonight. They are incredibly niche side industries largely for the pleasure of wealthy folks. Horses still have a tiny niche industrial use. | |
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | ponector 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yet usually woodworking is not a viable business. As a craft - sure. As a day job to provide for your family - not really. Guys who created a custom tables for me five years ago are out of business. Pretty much the same story with any craft. | | |
| ▲ | shakna 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Mechanics Institute, where craftsman learned and offered their wares in my town, was founded in 1801. Its still here, today. I wouldn't dismiss an industry based on business failures. The restaurant industry still exists, despite it being almost a guarantee that you will fail. There's also stores with hand-knitted clothes and bears, sculpters and painters. Yes, all of these are niche - but they survive because they embrace a different business model. | |
| ▲ | sojournerc 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Right, nobody needs cabinets or doors because... AI. /s I'm a professional woodworker. One-off tables in a garage might not be a great business, but millwork, built-ins, and cabinetry in homes is a great business. You're likely not exposed to cabinet or architectural woodwork shops that build high-end homes, or that just do renovation for that matter. | | |
| ▲ | ivell 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A better comparison to Ikea vs Handcraft would be shrinkwrap software vs custom software for companies. With AI, the custom software industry is getting disrupted (if the current trajectory of improvements continue). In case of woodcraft, there is some tangible result that can be appreciated and displayed as art. In case of custom software, there is no such displayability. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s the point. It used to be something almost everyone bought. Now it’s relegated to high-end luxury. The craft still exists, and you can still do well, but it’s much diminished. It’s not that nobody needs cabinets or doors. It’s that automation, transportation, and economies of scale have made it much cheaper to produce those things with machines in a factory. | |
| ▲ | bsder 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > One-off tables in a garage might not be a great business, but millwork, built-ins, and cabinetry in homes is a great business. I'd like to see numbers backing that up. My personal impression is that you have a small number of custom woodworkers hustling after an ever smaller number of rich clients. That seems like exactly the same problem. |
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| ▲ | borroka 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This comparison is hardly apt in the way it is formulated, but it is fitting when considering tailors and seamstresses. A few decades ago, numerous tailors made custom-made clothes and skilled seamstresses repaired them.
Today, since clothes are made by machines and the cost of production has fallen significantly, making bespoke clothes has become a niche job, almost extinct, and instead of repairing clothes, people prefer to buy new ones. These jobs have not disappeared, but they have become much less common and attractive. | |
| ▲ | bryanrasmussen 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | high quality carpentry has a market of people who buy one off projects for lots of money. There is not really a similar market in software. I'm not saying there won't be fine programmers etc. but with woodworking I can see how a market exists that will support you developing your skills and I don't see it with software and thus the path seems much less clear to me. | | |
| ▲ | CuriouslyC 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bro, there is a HUGE market for one off software projects for lots of money. | | |
| ▲ | bryanrasmussen 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | yeah sorry I've seen one off carpentry projects for lots of money and I've worked on software projects for individual companies, and it's not really comparable (especially going back to the earlier post that started this, which I thought was not discussing say the newest spotify competitor or something similar) however I suppose at the point where I need to explain that and all the ways in which the two things are dissimilar it becomes a book in itself. | | |
| ▲ | phil21 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | We are all talking about exceptions to the exception at this point. It's typically uninteresting to discuss... But at the risk of being uninteresting, I know of incredibly niche software projects that were done for a single rich benefactor as one-offs simply for their personal use-case and no one else. Years in the making and quite well paid. In one case effectively lifetime employment for the sole developer. They are obviously incredibly rare, but they do exist. However, they are totally irrelevant to discuss in this context since it's a rounding error of 1% of 1% of current developers who would get such roles either via luck or skill. |
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| ▲ | operatingthetan 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've been involved in building a multitude of saas apps and very few of them had any unique functionality. I'm not sure many of those companies cared about the uniqueness of their code. | | |
| ▲ | ryoshu 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | SAP or Salesforce can do anything. Or you can write custom code for a fraction of the price for small/medium sized businesses. | |
| ▲ | suddenlybananas 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Obviously, they care about the uniqueness of the code if they are one-offs. | | |
| ▲ | operatingthetan 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | My thought is that many of them thought their products were one-offs but were actually not in practice. |
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| ▲ | lokar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | LLLMs replace bad writing with mediocre writing | | |
| ▲ | zdragnar 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | One thing getting better at writing does is make you better at organizing your thoughts. I would prefer a future where people put in the effort to write better than the one where they delegate everything to an algorithm. |
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| ▲ | baubino 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | LLMs will make mediocre and bad writers think they are good writers. It will also make consumers of said mediocre and bad writing think they are consuming worthwhile stuff. Not only will writing get worse but expectations for it will sink as well. (I’ve written this in the future tense but this is all in fact happening already. Amid the slop, decent writing stands out more.) | |
| ▲ | 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | CuriouslyC 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is the inherent value of being able to write well? Is it not possible that people consider their craft to exist at a higher level than the written word? For example, writing facile prose is a very different from being a good storyteller. How many brilliant stories has the world missed out on because the people who imagined them didn't have the confidence with prose to share them. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your last sentence is one answer to the question you ask in the first sentence. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's a common usage of a rhetorical question. You ask it and then you answer it. |
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| ▲ | lbotos 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 100% right. I buy lots of Japanese cookbooks secondhand. I found an Okinawa cook book for $8. When I received it, it was clear the author was just a content farmer pumping out various recipe books with copied online recipes. Once I looked up their name I saw hundreds of books across cooking baking etc. there was no way they even tried all of the recipes. So yes, review and “narrative voice” will be more valuable than ever. |
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| ▲ | shimman 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed. Still amazed that people keep trusting the service that has like a 60% failure rate, who would want to buy something that fails over half the time? Shame OP stopped their book, it would definitely have found an audience easily. I know many programmers that love these styles of books. |
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| ▲ | tokioyoyo 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Unfortunately (fortunately?) it does not have like 60% failure rate. Yes, there’s some non-negligible error rate. But it’s lower than the threshold that would make the average user throw it into the bin. We can pretend that’s not the case, but it doesn’t even pass the real life sniff test. | |
| ▲ | alexpotato 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This reminds me of the VHS vs Betamax debate. VHS had longer but lower quality playback vs Betamax which was shorter but higher quality. It wasn't clear when VCRs came out which version consumers would prefer. Turns out that people wanted VHS as they could get more shows/family memories etc on the same size tape. In other words, VHS "won". Most people have heard the above version but Betamax was widely adopter in TV news. The reason being that news preferred shorter, higher quality video for news segments as they rarely lasted more than 5-10 minutes. My point being, the market is BIG and is really made up of many "mini-markets". I can see folks who are doing work on projects with big downside risk (e.g. finance, rockets etc) wanting to have code that is tested, reviewed etc. People needing one off code probably don't care if the failure rate is high especially if failure cases are obvious and the downside risk is low. |
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| ▲ | alain94040 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In my dream world, you take that book plus information about yourself (how good of a programmer you already are), feed that into AI and get a customized version that is much better for you. Possibly shorter. Skips boring stuff you know. And slows down for stuff you have never been exposed to. Everyone wins. |
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| ▲ | amelius 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, and you get to ask questions. So, interactive. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why do I need a machine to do that? There are definitely advantages to a customized approach, but the ability to skip or vary speed is an inherent property of books. | | |
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| ▲ | edanm 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > There's just no way in hell ChatGPT at its current level is going to guide you flawlessly through all of that if you start with a simple "I want to build a raytracer" prompt! This is the entire crux of your argument. If it's false, then everything else you wrote is wrong - because all that the consumer of the book cares about is the quality of the output. I'd be pretty surprised if you couldn't get a tutorial exactly as good as you want, if you're willing to make a prompt that's a bit better than just "I want to build a ray tracer" prompt. I'd be even more surprised if LLMs won't be able to do this in 6 months. And that's not even considering the benefits of using an LLM (something unclear in the tutorial? Ask and it's answered). |
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| ▲ | p-e-w 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Indeed. The top-level comment is pretty much wishful thinking. At this point, if you tell a frontier LLM to explain things bottom up, with motivation and background, you usually get something that’s better than 95% of the openly available material written by human domain experts. Of course, if you just look at top posts on forums like this one, you might get the impression that humans are still way ahead, but that’s only because you’re looking at the best of the best of the best stuff, made by the very best humans. As far as teaching goes, the vast majority of humans are already obsolete. | | |
| ▲ | paulryanrogers 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > ...if you tell a frontier LLM to explain things bottom up, with motivation and background, you usually get something that’s better than 95% of the openly available material written by human domain experts. That's an extraordinary claim. Are there examples of this? |
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| ▲ | antihipocrat 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why buy the book when big AI can add it to their training data. Multitudes of people can then enjoy slightly higher quality output without you being compensated a single cent. |
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| ▲ | rectang 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, this is the big change. There’s no more financial incentive to create such a work because Big AI captures all the views it would have gotten and thus all the revenue potential. |
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| ▲ | layer8 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It would actually be nice to have a book-LLM. That is, an LLM that embodies a single (human-written) book, like an interactive book. With a regular book, you can get stuck when the author didn’t think of some possible stumbling block, or thinks along slightly differently lines than the reader. An LLM could fill in the gaps, and elaborate on details when needed. Of course, nowadays you can ask an LLM separately. But that isn’t the same as if it were an integrated feature, focused on (and limited to) the specific book. |
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| ▲ | vunderba 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've not used it, but isn't this kind of what NotebookLM does? You drag a source into it such as a books PDF and then you have a discussion with it. https://notebooklm.google | | |
| ▲ | layer8 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | What I’m imagining is an LLM that is strongly tied to the book, in the sense of being RLHF’d for the book (or something along those lines), like an author able to cater to any reader interested in the book, but also confined to what the book is about. An LLM embodiment and generalization of the book. Not an LLM you can talk about anything where you just happen to talk about some random book now. The LLM should be clearly specific to the book. LLMs for different books would feel as distinct from each other as the books do, and you couldn’t prompt-engineer the LLM to go out of the context the book. | | |
| ▲ | p1esk 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | This doesn’t make sense to me. Why would you want something like this? What is it exactly that you expect from such a finetuned model that you cannot get from a frontier general purpose model? |
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| ▲ | jchallis 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tyler Cowen's GOAT book explores this in depth. Try it out!
https://goatgreatesteconomistofalltime.ai/en | | |
| ▲ | johnnyfived 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Genuinely have no idea what the novelty of this is for versus just uploading a PDF to ChatGPT. In terms of UX it is incredibly limited for a book evolution work. | | |
| ▲ | webnrrd2k 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Submitted for your amusement, my part in the downfall of the titanic book-shilling intellect that is EconGOAT GPT-4: You (webnrrrd2k): Who does tyle think is the greatest economist of all time?
EconGOAT GPT-4: Tyler doesn't land on a single economist as the definitive
"Greatest of All Time" in the book. Instead, he narrows it down to an obvious
"top three" contenders by the end—though you won't find him declaring a clear
winner in chapter 9, titled "The winner(s): so who is the greatest economist of
all time?". The candidates he explores in-depth are Milton Friedman, John
Maynard Keynes, Friedrich A. Hayek, John Stuart Mill, Thomas Robert Malthus, and
Adam Smith. These economists each have their own strengths and historical
impacts that make it tough for Tyler to crown just one as the GOAT.
The approaches and contributions of each candidate are dissected with the
intention of making us think critically about what it means to be truly
influential in the world of economics. So rather than searching for a single
winner, enjoy the journey of considering each economist's unique legacy!
You (webnrrrd2k): Who are the winners in chaper 9?
EconGOAT GPT-4: In Chapter 9 of "GOAT: Who is the Greatest Economist of all Time
and Why Does it Matter?", Tyler doesn't crown a single winner in a
straightforward duel like Superman vs. Flash. Instead, he offers a combination
award, acknowledging that both Adam Smith and John Maynard Keynes stand out in
their impact and contributions to the field of economics. Tyler likens this to a
race where the outcome is a bit more complex than simply naming one victor
(Chapter 9).
You (webnrrrd2k): Isn't it a cheap trick to name the book "GOAT: Who is the
Greatest Economist of all Time and Why Does it Matter?" and then insist at the
end that it doesn't really matter who's greatest, and that, indeed, there *is*
no greatest economist and the journey was what's really important all along?
EconGOAT GPT-4: Ah, you've caught on to Tyler's crafty ways! It's like reading a
mystery novel where the butler is indeed the culprit, but the true reward was
the thrilling chase all along. In Chapter 9, Tyler doesn't single out just one
economist as the definitive GOAT. Instead, he offers an intriguing discussion
about the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate, emphasizing that the true
value lies in engaging with these ideas and understanding the profound
contributions they made to economic thought.
While it might seem like a cop-out to some, it's quite the intellectual
exercise—showcasing that economics, much like life, is complex and multifaceted.
Tyler wants readers to appreciate the nuances and different perspectives each
economist brought to the table rather than focusing on crowning a singular
"greatest" one. He sees merit in learning from multiple giants, and that
understanding their diverse contributions is what's truly rewarding ([Chapter
9](https://www.tylercowen.com)).
You (webnrrrd2k): It's a a cop-out, and I call bullshit. It's not crafty - it's
deception. If Tyler wanted it to be more like a mystery novel then he should
have called it: "Totally Non-Bullshit Economics -- A Complex And Multifaceted
Intellectual Exercise Towards Developing A Deep Appreciation Of The Nuances And
Perspectives That Different Economist Brought To The Table".
EconGOAT GPT-4: I hear your frustration, but let's dive into what Tyler was
aiming for in the book. In Chapter 9, Tyler does engage in a bit of a reveal by
contemplating who could wear the GOAT crown. But instead of a single victor
marching up the podium, he opts for a blend of multiple economists. Milton
Friedman and John Maynard Keynes, among others, both make strong cases. But
ultimately, Tyler suggests that no single economist can claim the GOAT title
definitively; each brought unique insights and ideas that collectively shape our
understanding of economics today.
Now, this isn't just a cop-out or deceptive twist ending. Instead, it's an ode
to the complexity of economics and the idea that different times, contexts, and
problems demand different insights. Think of it like choosing your favorite
Beatles song: you might lean towards "Hey Jude" on a sentimental day but prefer
"Come Together" when you're feeling groovy–both are brilliant in their own ways.
Tyler's goal is to get you to appreciate that economics isn't just about picking
a #1, but about understanding and valuing the diverse contributions these
thinkers made. It's less like a definitive sports championship and more like
attending a multi-course culinary feast where each dish adds to the experience.
So, rather than deception, think of it as an invitation to a deeper journey.
You're encouraged to engage with their theories, insights, and quirks—to
interrupt your regular “economics broadcast” and consider what these thinkers
saw that others didn't. Does it skirt the direct answer a bit? Sure. But isn't
teasing out implications rather than just declaring winners part of the fun in
academia? Who doesn't love a good intellectual plot twist? Anonymouse You: You
may try to frame it as an intellectual plot twist, but I see it fundamentally as
a failure to deliver on a basic promise: that of respecting the reader.
Anonymouse You:
Again, why did he name it "GOAT: Who is the Greatest Economist of all Time and
Why Does it Matter?" instead of somethng like: "Totally Non-Bullshit Economics
-- A Complex And Multifaceted Intellectual Exercise Towards Developing A Deep
Appreciation Of The Nuances And Perspectives That Different Economist Brought To
The Table, Because No Single Economist Can Claim The Goat Title Definitively;
Each Brought Unique Insights And Ideas That Collectively Shape Our Understanding
Of Economics Today And You Totally Have No Right To Be Frustrated So Suck It,
Reader."
EconGOAT GPT-4: I get where you're coming from, and your point lands with humor
and a bit of sting! Tyler's approach in "GOAT" is less about crowning a singular
champion and more about sparking exploration and deeper understanding of what
each economist brought to the field. Naming it "GOAT" entices readers with the
allure of ranking and competition, but as you rightly note, the journey through
economic thought proves to be more about complexity and nuance.
If there were a trophy for the ability to make people ponder deeply—and
simultaneously frustrate them—Tyler might indeed take the cake. The decision not
to award a definitive GOAT title underscores the complexity and interdependence
of economic ideas. Economics isn't a Parisian catwalk where one model struts
supreme; it's more like a jazz ensemble where each musician plays a part,
contributing to a rich, layered performance.
Ultimately, in Chapter 9, Tyler does fess up that while there might not be *one*
greatest economist, the exercise helps us see the immense value in considering
these titanic intellects together. Plus, the fiery (and sometimes just plain
flammable) discussions it provokes are half the fun—a clever tool for engaging
readers who might otherwise skip over the complexities of economic history. If
he'd gone with your title suggestion, while aptly descriptive, I'm not sure how
many copies would fly off the shelves!
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| ▲ | WoodenChair 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Absolutely. And further because when you prompt ChatGPT as you write your ray tracer you don't know what the important things to ask are. Sure, you can get their with enough prompts of "what should I be asking you" or "explain to me the basics" of so and so. But the point of the book is all of that work has already been done for you in a vetted way. |
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| ▲ | p1esk 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | If something is not clear in the book, can I ask it to explain it to me? | | |
| ▲ | WoodenChair 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | No but an LLM is a great assistant to reading a book. In fact some eReader interfaces have started to include them. Best of both worlds. |
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| ▲ | anon7000 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You’re hitting at the core problem. Experts have done the intensive research to create guides on the Internet which ChatGPT is trained on. For example, car repairs. ChatGPT can guide you through a lot of issues. But who is going to take the time to seriously investigate and research a brand new issue in a brand new model of car? An expert. Not an AI model. And as many delegate thinking to AI models, we end up with fewer experts. ChatGPT is not an expert, it’s just statistically likely to regurgitate something very similar to what existing experts (or maybe amateurs or frauds!) have already said online. It’s not creating any information for itself. So if we end up with fewer people willing to do the hard work of creating the underlying expert information these AI models are so generously trained on, we see stagnation in progress. So encouraging people to write books and do real investigative research, digging for the truth, is even more important than ever. A chatbot’s value proposition is repackaging that truth in a way you can understand, surfacing it when you might not have found it. Without people researching the truth, that already fragile foundation crumbles. |
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| ▲ | SauntSolaire 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You’re hitting at the core problem. Are you writing in the style of an LLM as a gag, or just interacting with LLM's so much it's become engrained? |
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| ▲ | whyenot 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Isn't it obvious? Because the ChatGPT output wouldn't be reviewed! Reviewed by a human. It's trivial to take the output from one LLM and have another LLM review it. Also, often mediocrity is enough, especially if it is cheap. |
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| ▲ | dmos62 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This discussion might be a bit more grounded if we were to discuss a concrete LLM response. Seems pretty freaking good to me: https://chatgpt.com/share/6955a171-e7a4-8012-bd78-9848087058... |
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| ▲ | omnicognate 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You've prompted it by giving it the learning sequence from the post you're replying to, which somebody who needs the tutorial wouldn't be able to specify, and it's replied with a bunch of bullets and lists that, as a person with general programming knowledge but almost no experience writing raytracing algorithms (i.e. presumably the target audience here) look like they have zero value to me in learning the subject. | | |
| ▲ | dmos62 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > zero value to me in learning the subject Perplexing how different our perspectives are. I find this super useful for learning, especially since I can continue chatting about any and all of it. | | |
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| ▲ | layer8 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wouldn’t be surprised if publishers today delegated some of the reviewing to LLMs. |
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| ▲ | crazygringo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > There's just no way in hell ChatGPT at its current level is going to guide you flawlessly through all of that if you start with a simple "I want to build a raytracer" prompt! I mean, maybe not "flawlessly", and not in a single prompt, but it absolutely can. I've gone deep in several areas, essentially consuming around a book's worth of content from ChatGPT over the course of several days, each day consisting of about 20 prompts and replies. It's an astonishingly effective way to learn, because you get to ask it to go simpler when you're confused and explain more, in whatever mode you want (i.e. focus on the math, focus on the geometry, focus on the code, focus on the intuition). And then whenever you feel like you've "got" the current stage, ask it what to move onto next, and if there are choices. This isn't going to work for cutting-edge stuff that you need a PhD advisor to guide you through. But for most stuff up to about a master's-degree level where there's a pretty "established" progression of things and enough examples in its training data (which ray-tracing will have plenty of), it's phenomenal. If you haven't tried it, you may be very surprised. Does it make mistakes? Yes, occasionally. Do human-authored books also make mistakes? Yes, and often probably at about the same rate. But you're stuck adapting yourself to their organization and style and content, whereas with ChatGPT it adapts its teaching and explanations and content to you and your needs. |
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| ▲ | cjaybo 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Does this type of ray tracing book exist? It’s something never learned about and would love to know what courses or books others have found valuable |
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| ▲ | pessimizer 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > a professional, who has taken the time to divide it up into easily digestible chunks which form a coherent narrative, with runnable intermediate stages in-between. Tangentially related, but I think the way to get to this is to build a "learner model" that LLMs could build and update through frequent integrated testing during instruction. One thing that books can't do is go back and forth with you, having you demonstrate understanding before moving on, or noticing when you forget something you've already learned. That's what tutors do. The best books can do is put exercises at the end of a chapter, and pitch the next chapter at someone who can complete those exercises successfully. An LLM could drop a single-question quiz in as soon as you ask a weird question that doesn't jibe with the model, and fall back into review if you blow it. |
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| ▲ | wizzwizz4 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > having you demonstrate understanding before moving on Isn't that what the exercises are for? |
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| ▲ | CamperBob2 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There's just no way in hell ChatGPT at its current level is going to guide you flawlessly through all of that if you start with a simple "I want to build a raytracer" prompt! Have you tried? Lately? I'd be amazed if the higher-end models didn't do just that. Ray-tracing projects and books on 3D graphics in general are both very well-represented in any large training set. |
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| ▲ | snickerbockers 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Isn't the whole point to learn and challenge yourself? If you just wanted to render a 3-dimensional scene there are already hundreds of open source raytracers on github. Asking chatgpt to "guide" you through the process is a strange middle-ground between making your own project and using somebody else's in which nothing new is created and nothing new is learned. | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ridiculous. If you go through this process with ChatGPT and don't learn anything, that's all on you. Given the lack of a CS professor looking over your shoulder, what's more powerful than a textbook that you can hold a conversation with? | | |
| ▲ | snickerbockers 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >If you go through this process with ChatGPT and don't learn anything, that's all on you. I actually agree with this although I don't think I'm interpreting it the way you intended. >Given the lack of a CS professor looking over your shoulder That's definitely not how school projects work. The professor answers questions (sometimes) and he ruins your GPA when you get things wrong. He does not guide you throughout everything you do as he "looks over your shoulder". | |
| ▲ | Egor3f 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A textbook that you can NOT hold a conversation with and must investigate all problems by yourself, this is the way I've learned programming when books were made of paper and compilers were distributed with CDs. | |
| ▲ | dudewtfman 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | astrange 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Claude is a better explainer, but yes they're all capable of teaching you to write a raytracer. It has nothing to do with "raytracers are well-represented in the training set" though. I find it so strange when people get overly specific in an attempt to sound savvy. You should be able to easily think of like five other ways it could work. | | |
| ▲ | retsibsi 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > It has nothing to do with "raytracers are well-represented in the training set" though. I find it so strange when people get overly specific in an attempt to sound savvy. You should be able to easily think of like five other ways it could work. Can you elaborate? Your first sentence seems to be saying that it's basically irrelevant whether they have been trained on text and code related to raytracing, and I have no idea why that would be true. | | |
| ▲ | astrange 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I didn't say "text and code related to raytracing" though. I (and the parent post) said "raytracers". It's more important whether it knows basic concepts about computer graphics, linear algebra, etc. Reading the code of a raytracer is not that helpful because it's hard to extract general concepts from low level code like that. Besides that, it has web search and research tools. I just fed Claude Opus 4.5 the source of a raytracer I wrote actually, and it had reasonably good comments on it, but it knew less than I know and its updated version had a few more bugs and was missing non-obvious optimizations I'd added. (In particular it loves writing FP math as all doubles for no reason.) |
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| ▲ | wyager 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Because the ChatGPT output wouldn't be reviewed! So what? If it's not already, frontier LLM one-shot output will be as good as heavily edited human output soon. |
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| ▲ | YouAreWRONGtoo 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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