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bryan_w 9 hours ago

I used to work for an ad tech company (which I know already makes me the devil to some around here), and even I think that they crossed a line with this. A lot of industry terms are coded in corporate speak to make them sound better (think "revealed preferences" or "enabling personalization"), but I would genuinely like to know what the engineers thought when doing design reviews for a "selective stand down" feature. There doesn't seem to be a legit way to spin it.

Making a product to explicitly skirt agreements while working for a corporation is ... a choice

Waterluvian 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> what the engineers thought when doing design reviews for a "selective stand down" feature.

Possibly a version of, “I lack the freedom to operate with a moral code at work because I’m probably replaceable, the job market makes me anxious, my family’s well-being and healthcare are tied to having a job, and I don’t believe the government has my back.”

Aurornis 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

From my experience, it’s more likely that the engineers who got far enough in the company to be working on this code believed that their willingness to work on nefarious tasks that others might refuse or whistle-blow made them a trusted asset within the company.

In industries like this there’s also a mindset of “Who cares, it’s all going to corporations anyway, why not send some of that money to the corporation that writes my paychecks?”

petterroea 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I suspect you are right. It reminds me of the whole "at the government you can hack legally" argument used by government intelligence agencies to recruit hackers.

I think a lot of skilled engineers want interesting challenges where they break boundaries, and being in an environment that wants you to break those boundaries allows them to legitimize why they are doing it. That is, "someone else is taking moral responsibility, so I can do my technical challenge in peace"

zaphirplane 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you know of anyone declining to work on a project For ethical in their view ( non military non killing) ?

I’ve led a sheltered life and never met one, people have told me they wouldn’t apply for a role with a company for ethical reasons maybe they even believed they would get the job

neilv 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I know a lot of people who won't work for some companies for ethical reasons.

Though, sometimes the exact reason is muddied, since companies that are perceived as unethical in how they behave externally are often also perceived as unethical in how they behave towards employees. So you might object on pragmatic grounds of how you'd be treated, before you ever get to, say, altruistic grounds.

Also, sometimes fashion is involved. For example, many people wouldn't work for company X, because of popular ethical objections to what they do being in the news, but some of those people would probably work for an unknown company doing the same things, without thinking much about it.

But often it's just "I don't like what company Y is doing to people, and I wouldn't work on that, even if they treated employees really well, and it was really fashionable to work there".

(See, for example, the people who refused to work for Google after the end of Don't Be Evil honeymoon phase, even though they generally treated employees pretty well, and it was still fashionable to work there.)

fernandotakai an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Do you know of anyone declining to work on a project For ethical in their view ( non military non killing) ?

o/

i was offered a high paying job, with relocation to a 1st world country (at the time, i was living in a 3rd world country with high murder rates), to a industry that i consider quite shady (and it's not military and not around killing -- i have no issues with both of those). i politely refused.

most of my friends, at the time, told me that they would've have accepted without even thinking, but for me, it's just not worth it.

chanchowancho 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes! I once met a highly paid contract tech lead who had walked out of a lucrative contract with a supermarket after he became aware the new credit card product he was working on was to be exclusively targeted at customers in poor areas.

The moral fortitude on that man!

I applaud his actions, but genuinely do not know if I would have the stones to leave my job if I was in a similar position!

Marsymars 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well kinda trivially, asides from secular ethics, you'll find that typical Muslims decline a number of jobs/projects for ethical reasons.

mattclarkdotnet 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I know lots of people who had the offer to work in gambling but chose not to take it for moral reasons

yetihehe 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I had an offer to work in gambling as a young inexperienced student, fortunately they didn't hire me because I was too inexperienced. I can imagine how my career would move if my first working experience was in such company. Some people might be like that.

itsdesmond 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a real long look in the mirror moment.

furyg3 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like the idea that what makes someone a 'professional' instead of just an employee is the wherewithal, agency, and expectation to say no to a particular task or assignment.

An architect or engineer is expected to signal and object to an unsafe design, and is expected by their profession (peers, clients, future employers) to refuse said work even if it costs them their job. This applies even to professions without a formalized license board.

If you don't have the guts and ability to act ethically (and your field will let you get away with it), you're just a code monkey and not a professional software developer.

nosianu an hour ago | parent [-]

Maybe when the government and the shareholders start setting an example and hold the bosses and capital owners accountable, and reward instead of punish the whistleblowers, and when their are enough jobs so that losing the one you have is not a problem, moral behavior further down the hierarchy will improve.

steve_adams_86 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my experience, sometimes your employer blatantly lies to you about what you're making and how it'll be used. I was once recruited to work on a software installer which could build and sign dynamic collections of software which was meant to be used to conveniently install several packages at once. Like, here's a set of handy tools for X task, here are the default apps we install on machines for QA people, here is our suite of apps for whatever. It seemed to have genuine utility because it could pull data in real time to ensure it was all patched and current and so on. That could be great for getting new machines up and running quickly. Several options exist for this use case today, but didn't then as far as I recall. This was on Windows.

Ultimately it was only used to install malware in the form of browser extensions, typically disguised as an installer for some useful piece of software like Adobe Acrobat. It would guide you through installing some 500 year old version of Acrobat and sneakily unload the rest of the garbage for which we would be paid, I don't know, 25 cents to a couple dollars per install. Sneaking Chrome onto people's machines was great money for a while. At one point we were running numbers of around $150k CAD per day just dumping trash into unsuspecting people's computers.

At no point in the development of that technology were we told it was going to ruin countless thousands of people's browsers or internet experiences in general. For quite a while the CEO played a game with me where I'd find bad actors on the network and report them to him. He'd thank me and assure me they were on top of figuring out who was behind it. Eventually I figured out that the accounts were in fact his. They let me go shortly after that with generous severance.

I don't miss anything about ad tech. It was such a disheartening introduction to the software world. It's really the armpit and asshole of tech, all at once.

autoexec 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you can only get away with that excuse so long as you're actively looking for a new job while also collecting data to turn whistleblower (anonymously if need be) once you have one. Ultimately it falls on the employee to do the right thing or get out because they risk being held accountable for what they do. A replaceable employee (which is pretty much all of them) will be especially vulnerable since they can be thrown under the bus with minimal inconvenience to the company.

dbtc 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also likely, some version of "get dat money"

cowpig 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah yes let's be sure not to judge anyone for anything they do

asimovfan 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People do not make choices in a vacuum.

autoexec 6 hours ago | parent [-]

But they still make their choices and should face the consequences of them.

Zetaphor 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What exactly do you propose?

Kwpolska 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Death penalty for engineers, and a slap on the wrist for CEOs.

Spivak 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can still judge them evil even if the parent was accurate as to the motivations for their actions. Villains are more interesting when they're sympathetic.

You're in the planning meeting discussing this feature, you ask "Hey, are we allowed to do this? I thought stand downs were contractural." and your PM says yes, they got the okay from legal. Now what do you do?

bryan_w 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> they got the okay from legal.

Now that I could definitely see happening. I would also want that in writing somewhere.

I guess discovery for the impending lawsuits should be very interesting

rectang 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s easy, looking at the current state of affairs, to conclude that ethical behavior is incompatible with capitalist ambition. One might still choose to be ethical nonetheless, but with the understanding that you will be overtaken by those who have made a different choice.

ramraj07 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is no different, and frankly far less alarming to me, than Uber's project greyball from 2017, which should have tanked a company in a just world. I suppose some companies just promulgate a culture where its acceptable or even lauded to evade law and contracts: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/technology/uber-greyball-...

ferfumarma 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

You are right, but it's just a whataboutism argument, isn't it? There are lots of other evils by other businesses; why are they relevant here?

ramraj07 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

This comment was replying to someone asking "how could engineers possibly write such malicious code" so a more glaring example from a more mainstream company seemed quite appropriate.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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immibis an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Possibly "marketing is all bullshit and hopefully this destroys it faster"

It's not like any crime was committed, and civil liability falls squarely on the business here, not its employees. And the whole dispute is only about which marketing company receives marketing revenue - something where the world would improve if they all disappeared overnight. Doesn't really seem that evil to me. Underhanded, yes.

I think the only reason there's any outrage at all, outside the affiliate marketing "industry", is that some of these marketing companies are YouTube personalities with whom many people have parasocial relationships. Guess what, they just got to learn the hard way why capitalism sucks. What Honey did is a valid move in the game of business. Businesses throughout history have gained success by doing way worse things than this. Amazon's MFN clause is way worse. Uber's Greyball is way worse.