| ▲ | asmor 14 hours ago |
| Is anyone else getting more mentally exhausted by this? I get more done, but I also miss the relaxing code typing in the middle of the process. |
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| ▲ | agumonkey 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I think there are two groups of people emerging. deep / fast / craft-and-decomposition-loving vs black box / outcome-only. I've seen people unable to work at average speed on small features suddenly reach above average output through a llm cli and I could sense the pride in them. Which is at odds with my experience of work.. I love to dig down, know a lot, model and find abstractions on my own. There a llm will 1) not understand how my brain work 2) produce something workable but that requires me to stretch mentally.. and most of the time I leave numb. In the last month I've seen many people expressing similar views. ps: thanks everybody for the answers, interesting to read your pov |
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| ▲ | remich 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I get what you're saying, but I would say that this does not match my own experience. For me, prior to the agentic coding era, the problem was always that I had way more ideas for features, tools, or projects than I had the capacity to build when I had to confront the work of building everything by hand, also dealing with the inevitable difficulties in procrastination and getting started. I am a very above-average engineer when it comes to speed at completing work well, whether that's typing speed or comprehension speed, and still these tools have felt like giving me a jetpack for my mind. I can get things done in weeks that would have taken me months before, and that opens up space to consider new areas that I wouldn't have even bothered exploring before because I would not have had the time to execute on them well. | |
| ▲ | ronsor 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The sibling comments (from remich and sanufar) match my experience. 1. I do love getting into the details of code, but I don't mind having an LLM handle boilerplate. 2. There isn't a binary between having an LLM generate all the code and writing it all myself. 3. I still do most of the design work because LLMs often make questionable design decisions. 4. Sometimes I simply want a program to solve a problem (outcome-focused) over a project to work on (craft-focused). Sometimes I need a small program in order to focus on the larger project, and being able to delegate that work has made it more enjoyable. | | |
| ▲ | zahlman 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I do love getting into the details of code, but I don't mind having an LLM handle boilerplate. My usual thought is that boilerplate tells me, by existing, where the system is most flawed. I do like the idea of having a tool that quickly patches the problem while also forcing me to think about its presence. > There isn't a binary between having an LLM generate all the code and writing it all myself. I still do most of the design work because LLMs often make questionable design decisions. One workflow that makes sense to me is to have the LLM commit on a branch; fix simple issues instead of trying to make it work (with all the worry of context poisoning); refactor on the same branch; merge; and then repeat for the next feature — starting more or less from scratch except for the agent config (CLAUDE.md etc.). Does that sound about right? Maybe you do something less formal? > Sometimes I simply want a program to solve a purpose (outcome-focused) over a project to work on (craft-focused). Sometimes I need a small program in order to focus on the larger project, and being able to delegate that work has made it more enjoyable. Yeah, that sounds about right. |
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| ▲ | sanufar 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think for me, the difference really comes down to how much ownership I want to take in regards to the project. If it’s something like a custom kernel that I’m building, the real fun is in reading through docs, learning about systems, and trying to craft the perfect abstractions; but if it’s wiring up a simple pipeline that sends me a text whenever my bus arrives, I’m happy to let an LLM crank that out for me. I’ve realized that a lot of my coding is on this personal satisfaction vs utility matrix and llms let me focus a lot more energy onto high satisfaction projects | |
| ▲ | zahlman 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > deep / fast / craft-and-decomposition-loving vs black box / outcome-only As a (self-reported) craft-and-decomposition lover, I wouldn't call the process "fast". Certainly it's much faster than if I were trying to take the same approach without the same skills; and certainly I could slow it down with over-engineering. (And "deep" absolutely fits.) But the people I've known that I'd characterize as strongly "outcome-only", were certainly capable of sustaining some pretty high delta-LoC per day. |
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| ▲ | jghn 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's kind of the point here. Once a dev reached a certain level, they often weren't doing much "relaxing code typing" anyways before the AI movement. I don't find it to be much different than being a tech lead, architect, or similar role. |
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| ▲ | remich 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | As a former tech lead and now staff engineer, I definitely agree with this. I read a blog post a couple of months ago that theorized that the people that would adopt these technologies the best were people in the exact roles that you describe. I think because we were already used to having to rely on other people to execute on our plans and ideas because they were simply too big to accomplish by ourselves. Now that we have agents to do these things, it's not really all that different - although it is a different management style working around their limitations. | | |
| ▲ | jghn 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | Exactly. I've been a tech lead, have led large, cross-org projects, been an engineering manager, and similar roles. For years, when mentoring upcoming developers what I always to be the most challenging transition was the inflection point between "I deliver most of my value by coding" to "I deliver most of my value by empowering other people to deliver". I think that's what we're seeing here. People who have made this transition are already used to working this way. Both versions have their own quirks and challenges, but at a high level it abstracts. | | |
| ▲ | 9rx 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | LLMs are just a programming language/compiler/REPL, though, so there is nothing out of the ordinary for developers. Except what is different is the painfully slow compile time to code ratio. You write code for a few minutes... and then wait. Then spend a few more minutes writing code... and then wait. That is where the exhaustion comes from. At least in the olden days[1] you could write code for days before compiling, which reduced the pain. Long compilation times has always been awful, but it is less frustrating when you could defer it until the next blue moon. LLMs don't (yet) seem to be able to handle that. If you feed them more than small amounts of code at a time they quickly go off the rails. With that said, while you could write large amounts of code and defer it until the next blue moon, it is a skill to be able to do that. Even in C++, juniors seem to like to write a few lines of code and then turn to compiling the results to make sure they are on the right track. I expect that is the group of people who is most feeling at home with LLMs. Spending a few minutes writing code and then waiting on compilation isn't abnormal for them. But presumably the tooling will improve with time. [1] https://xkcd.com/303/ | | |
| ▲ | recursive 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Programming languages are structured and have specifications. It is possible to know what code will do just by reading it. | | |
| ▲ | 9rx 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well designed ones do, at least. LLMs, in their infancy, still bring a lot of undefined behaviour, which is you end up stuck in the code for a few minutes -> compile -> wait -> repeat cycle. But that is not a desirable property and won't remain acceptable as the technology matures. | | |
| ▲ | recursive 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't see any way this is changing, acceptable or not. | | |
| ▲ | 9rx 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is quite possible the tools will never improve beyond where they sit today, sure, but then usage will naturally drift away from that fatiguing use (not all use, obviously). The constant compile/wait cycle is exhausting exactly because it is not productive. Businesses are currently willing to accept that lack of productivity as an investment into figuring out how to tame the tools. There is a lot of hope that all the problems can be solved if we keep trying to solve them. And, in fairness, we have gotten a lot closer than we were just a year or so ago towards that end, so the optimism currently remains strong. However, that cannot go on forever. At some point the investment has to prove itself, else the plug will be pulled. And yes, it may ultimately be a dead end. Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first failure in software development. |
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| ▲ | tikimcfee 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ya know, I have to admit feeling something like this. Normally, the amount of stuff I put together in a work day offers a sense of completion or even a bit of a dopamine bump because of a "job well done". With this recent work I've been doing, it's instead felt like I've been spending a multiplier more energy communicating intent instead of doing the work myself; that communication seems to be making me more tired than the work itself. Similar? |
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| ▲ | whynotminot 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It feels like we all signed up to be ICs, but now we’re middle managers and our reports are bots. | | |
| ▲ | MikeTheGreat 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I forget where I saw this (a Medium post, somewhere) but someone summed this up as "I didn't sign up for this just to be a tech priest for the machine god". | | |
| ▲ | whstl 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Someone commented yesterday that managers and other higher-ups are "already ok with non-deterministic outputs", because that's what engineers give them. As a manager/tech-lead, I've kind of been a tech priest for some time. |
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| ▲ | senshan 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > and our reports are bots. With no gossip, rivalry or backstabbing. Super polite and patient, which is very inspiring. We also brutally churning them by "laying off" the previously latest model once the new latest is available. |
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| ▲ | perfmode 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You’re possibly not entering into the flow state anymore. Flow is effortless. and it is rejuvenating. I believe: While communication can be satisfying, it’s not as rejuvenating as resting in our own Being and simply allowing the action to unfold without mental contraction. Flow states. When the right level of challenge and capability align and you become intimate with the problem. The boundaries of me and the problem dissolve and creativity springs forth. Emerging satisfied. Nourished. | |
| ▲ | johnsmith1840 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is why I think LLMs will make us all a LOT smarter. Raw code made it so we stopped heavily thinking in between but now it's just 100% the most intense thought processes all day long. | | |
| ▲ | falkensmaize 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | It seems pretty obvious that the opposite is true. I know I’ve experienced some serious skill atrophy that I’m now having to actively resist. There’s a lot lost by no longer having to interact with the raw materials of your craft. Thinking is a skill that is reinforced by reading, designing and writing code. When you outsource your thinking to an LLM your ability to think doesn’t magically improve…it degrades. |
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| ▲ | epolanski 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes it's taxing and mentally draining, reading code and connecting dots is always harder than writing it. And if you let the AI too loose, as when you try to vibe code an entirely new program, I end up in the situation where in 1 day I have a good prototype and then I can spend easily 5 times as much sorting the many issues and refactoring in order to have it scale to the next features. |
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| ▲ | bccdee 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So far what I've been doing is, I look for the parts that seem like they'd be rewarding to code and I do them myself with no input from the machine whatsoever. It's hard to really understand a codebase without spending time with the code, and when you're using a model, I think there's a risk of things changing more quickly than you can internalize them. Also, I worry I'll get too comfortable bossing chatbots around & I'll become reluctant to get my hands dirty and produce code directly. People talk about ruining their attention spans by spending all their time on TikTok until they can no longer read novels; I think it'd be a real mistake to let that happen to my professional skill set. |
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| ▲ | simonw 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, absolutely, I can be mentally wiped out by lunch. |
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| ▲ | SJMG 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it's the serial waiting game and inevitable context switching while you wait. Long iteration cycles are taxing |
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| ▲ | bugglebeetle 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nah, I don’t miss at all typing all the tests, CLIs, and APIs I’ve created hundreds of times before. I dunno if I it’s because I do ML stuff, but it’s almost all “think a lot about something, do some math, and and then type thousands of lines of the same stuff around the interesting work.” |
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| ▲ | mupuff1234 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For me it's the opposite, I'm wasting less energy over debugging silly bugs and fighting/figuring out some annoying config. But it does feel less fulfilling I suppose. |
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| ▲ | teaearlgraycold 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I like to alternate focusing on AI wrangling and writing code the old fashioned way. |