| ▲ | cookiengineer 9 hours ago |
| I had a very interesting discussion with a friend today, where I was talking to her about the /r/golang thread about Rob Pike's comments to OpenAI and how the thread was full of bots talking with other bots. No idea why the density of bots was so high in that thread, it was kind of absurd to see. Then she said: "I know nobody that comments on online forums. Nobody would ever comment to strangers on the internet. It's too dangerous." Took me a while to grasp what she meant with that, but I think she's right. Trust has eroded so much over the last two decades that most forums are either full of bots or full of annoyed and toxic people. It's very rare to find welcoming communities to newbies, and most of the ones I have discovered were offline connections. She also mentioned that all of her friends use private profiles only, because having public profiles is too dangerous because of stalkers. To me this sounded a bit absurd at first, but maybe that's a different perception on "how to use" the internet from a different younger generation that grew up post-socialmedia? My first contact with the internet was MIT opencourseware, her first contact was receiving dick pics at the age of 10 from assholes on the other side of the planet. I miss the old phpbb forum days when the most toxic comment was someone being snarky and derailing the discussion into "did you use the search function?" No idea how to fix the internet, maybe it's time to move to gopher or another protocol :-/ |
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| ▲ | xbmcuser 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Most of her friends are probably women. Try making an account with an obvious female name and you will see a marked difference on most social platforms I am saying this as a guy we really don't understand the world women live in online or offline. |
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| ▲ | laszlojamf 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | funny story: I got the wife of a friend to install tinder, a couple of years back when I was dating. I was having a hard time getting matches, so I figured I'd see how the other side lives. She created an empty profile, with a blurry hippopotamus as a profile picture, and a single letter as name. Just "H". For hippopotamus. No bio. Within five minutes she was matching with every other guy she swiped right on. Which wasn't all of them, mind you. Within another five minutes, half of the guys she had matched with had messaged her. Regular looking guys. A lot of them had same opening line. "Did you know hippos are the most dangerous animal in the world?"
After that, I got why I wasn't getting any replies >.< | |
| ▲ | fennecbutt 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think some of us have a fair idea. And I think both sexes have problems that we could solve but continue to ignore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Made_Man_(book) Still a very valid experiment. I know the source of both sex' strife though: competition. I don't think we'll ever solve that, not while we're still monkeys. | | |
| ▲ | sph an hour ago | parent [-] | | I like her take-away from this experiment: Vincent stated that, after the experiment, she gained more sympathy for the male condition: "Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better. They need our sympathy, they need our love, and they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together." I respect that, compared to the arguments that sex A is having a better time than B, or that one needs more support and focus than the other. We’re all in the same, but different, shit. |
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| ▲ | stinkbeetle 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That old trope is pretty tired ("you can't possibly understand or talk about anything that you have not personally exactly experienced for yourself"). Of course men don't know exactly what it's like to be a woman, just like one person does not know exactly what it is like to be any other person. You can still have an understanding and talk meaningfully about things, in many cases. The internet is not "dangerous for a woman", like you might say it is for a child. It can be much less dangerous because there is a very low risk of unwanted physical contact. I have never in my life "made an account" with identifiable names that are public on the internet. I don't post my sex, address, age, photos, bank account details, or mother's maiden name on internet forums either. So I have had exactly the same experience as a woman who had done the same thing in anonymous forums. I might even be a woman. An identifiable woman will obviously attract unsolicited disgusting and horrible comments and content of course, not just sexual but threats of violence too probably more than men do. This is not some high mystery or something so complicated that we're befuddled trying to understand it. Offline is a completely different story, but online? I can see messages people I know get. Online is about the safest a woman (or man) can be, and still talk and interact and collaborate and share with people. And I have been "stalked" (in an online anonymous account way), sent horrible graphic sexual and violent threatening things, for having differences of opinion. It's not nice, but it's not "dangerous" for me. I got ambushed and beat up walking in public one day -- offline -- that was dangerous. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | They didn't suggest men couldn't understand, they actually offered a way to help foster understanding by creating the false profile. The ones who won't understand are those who make no effort to understand, and that's quite reasonable to say. A woman's online safety relative to other spaces also misses the point about their online spaces being less safe than those of men; the suggestion wasn't that online spaces are the absolute most dangerous spaces for them. That said I would raise the point of how easy it is to dehumanise people online and how easy it is to quickly gather various data like work addresses etc. |
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| ▲ | deaux 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Over the whole population, I bet the difference between sexes is very small when it comes to what % posts online comment. You're saying "most social platforms" - what's the biggest one in the world? Probably still Facebook. Yet I'm fairly sure it has a higher female than male DAU, at least in the West. r/kpop has 3 million subscribers. Take a look at the most followed accounts on Instagram. How many of them have female-dominated comment sections? > I am saying this as a guy we really don't understand the world women live in online or offline. You're saying this as a guy who doesn't understand the world the general population lives in, outside your highly-educated male-dominated tech bubble. You're considering only the spaces you have been visiting for most of your life. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Parent was saying that most men don't understand the amount of casual sexual harassment women are subjected to in unmoderated online spaces -- much more so than men receive. Which makes me sad. Apparently Y chromosome + enculturation = prerogative to send unsolicited photos of ones genitalia to random internet strangers. |
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| ▲ | Khaine 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thats just what the internet of the mid to late 90s was like. People rarely used their real name, there were hundreds of forums, some private. You could have different nicks on them. Nobody knew you were a dog on the internet[1] until the rise of Facebook and linking your real identity with an online identity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... |
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| ▲ | mjevans 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | The idea that everyone has only one identity, one whole, is harmful. People change over time. People change even a little based on who's around them. Even memories change as people see things in new lights. The Internet of the late 90s and early 2000s was spectacular in that everyone could be as authentic and deep as they wanted to be, and as shallow and invisible as they wanted to be depending on context. Firefox? Want to know how to really sell yourself. Be 'For the User', like TRON (but avoid that for copyright reasons and because normal people don't understand). The user should be able to TRUST that Firefox isn't selling them out, spying on them, or doing anything strange. That when Firefox creates identity sandboxes they're firewalled from each other to the maximum extent; including resisting device fingerprinting (just look generic and boring). | | |
| ▲ | hyperadvanced 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You could argue (it certainly has been argued) that the ability for technology to dissolve the usually more coherent identities that we take on daily by granting unlimited role play, trolling, and exploration is simply too much for a lot of people, and makes it hard to maintain a coherent sense of self. This is especially true of people who are “internet addicts” - not that the designation means a whole lot as I’m here at the gym talking to you on the phone. Don’t get me wrong, I mostly agree with your comment. I think even more dastardly is the tendency for the internet to market new personalities to you, based on what’s profitable | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's also the inconvenient truth that a very specific part of the world was online in the 1990s. Primarily more educated, more liberal, more wealthy. Turns out, when you hook the rest of the planet online, you get mass persuasion campaigns, fake genocide "reporting", and enough of an increase in ambient noise that coherent anonymous discourse becomes impossible. I mean, look at the comments on Fox News or political YouTube videos. That's the real average level of discussion. |
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| ▲ | chrchr 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But your friend is wrong. She does know at least one person who comments on online forums. I bet she knows more too. |
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| ▲ | schuylerlarson 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Completely agree. Look at some videos on YouTube. 20,000 comments on brand new videos sometimes. A lot of good people are commenting on the internet. The problem is that the trust in public institutions is at an all time low, and that is leading to much more doom and gloom and those of us who are from the 2000s can feel the difference in the comment sections. | |
| ▲ | baobun 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don't ask don't tell. | |
| ▲ | 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | misiti3780 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | exactly! |
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| ▲ | dkarbayev 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Most of the internet users are passive content consumers, and it’s been the case since a long time ago. There's a post about it from 2019: https://bewilderbeast.org/2019/08/16/most-of-what-you-read-o... |
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| ▲ | ethagknight 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I never tell people I comment online. No one I know knows my Reddit username (as far as I know…). Few of my friends even know what HN is. |
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| ▲ | mikestorrent 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be fair, back in those "good old phpbb days", people trolled just as hard as anyone does now, and maybe worse, since the consequences of it were not as visible, and getting in trouble for things you said online was virtually nonexistent. Everyone used a fake name, and while it might be possible to dox someone, it wasn't an operational concern for anyone who just wanted to be a jerk... |
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| ▲ | Majromax 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > people trolled just as hard as anyone does now, Trolling had (has) a different character in smaller, more private forums: it tends towards more effort. A low-effort troll just gets banned and loses their platform, so the troll needs to at least ride the line of legitimacy. Drawing the line back to Usenet, the sheer effort that went into some trolling garnered respect if not necessarily acceptance. Drive-by interactions reward volume since the 'game' isn't repeated. Curated social media feeds like Twitter are even worse; the troll has their own audience predisposed towards acceptance and the victim is just set-dressing. I analogize this to in-person interactions: ostracization is mutually costly. A small group loses a member who was at least making a 'warm body' contribution, but the ostracized person loses a whole set of social benefits. |
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| ▲ | enos_feedler 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the idea that nobody would talk to strangers online is a bit too general. We are all mostly doing it here. I do it on reddit all the time in the same recurring subreddits that I've grown to trust. IRC was also pretty hostile back in the 90s. But again it depended on the communities. Just think you can't generalize the internet this way. |
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| ▲ | ptero 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > No idea how to fix the internet, maybe it's time to move to gopher or another protocol :-/ Fido and Usenet are still around. Kind-of. IMO google virtually killed that, too, when they started peddling google groups and did the classic embrace-extend-extinguish on the Usenet. |
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| ▲ | mgaunard 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They don't write on forums but they like or share a story. It's just more passive/consumer-minded. |
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| ▲ | spoaceman7777 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| most people just don't tell other people about what they do online. it's very private. like, it's a running on joke on most social media websites that "i hope no one i know irl finds this account..." i think your friend is just overestimating her knowledge of her friends' lives |
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| ▲ | campital 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t see any obvious evidence of bot activity on that thread (and all of my spot checks strongly leaned human). Were some comments removed or something? |
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| ▲ | brigandish 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I noticed a few people on HN have started complaining that anyone arguing with them is a bot. I think it's a coping mechanism at finding people who challenge them, but maybe they've been on too many bot-infested forums lately, or are just young (that might overlap with both users of bot-infested forums and those who haven't had their ideas challenged much). |
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| ▲ | drob518 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I know I self-censor a LOT. |
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| ▲ | golem14 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And yet, here you are, posting ... BTW, I don't explicitly disagree with what you're saying, but it would be good to look at actual data instead of anecdata to know for sure, and the people who have the data are not telling ... |
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| ▲ | cookiengineer 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > And yet, here you are, posting ... Correction, I am posting while pooping. I don't care much about social media these days and I draw the line at the toilet door. | | |
| ▲ | shermantanktop 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Given the word count of your original post, I can tell you that daily psyllium husk is a miracle. | | |
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| ▲ | KPGv2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Trust has eroded so much over the last two decades that most forums are either full of bots or full of annoyed and toxic people. It's very rare to find welcoming communities to newbies, and most of the ones I have discovered were offline connections. Tumblr is still doing pretty well on that front. I'm there for a fandom, and it's a super positive atmosphere where everyone just wants to make and talk about cool art. |
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| ▲ | fragmede 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| All my real HN friends are on https://news.ysimulator.run/news |
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