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maxloh 10 hours ago

> The details / summary thing absolutely kills me. There’s basically nothing you can’t do with them.

Animating the details element is tricky. By the spec, browsers don’t natively support transitions between display: none and display: block.

jakelazaroff 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That is no longer true! You can do it in CSS with a combination of `@starting-style` and `transition-behavior: allow-discrete`. [1]

Another gotcha you'll run into is animating the height. A couple other new features (`interpolate-size: allow-keywords` and `::details-content`) will let you get around that. [2]

Modern CSS is awesome.

[1] https://developer.chrome.com/blog/entry-exit-animations

[2] https://nerdy.dev/open-and-close-transitions-for-the-details...

port11 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The major issue with this is that modern CSS is almost its own job, to the point we used to have Interface Developers at some place I’ve worked (HTML+CSS specialists). I did frontend for over a decade and eventually lost the train on CSS changes, I don’t even know what’s going on there anymore.

It’s still awesome, but it’s becoming increasingly silly to ask someone to know modern HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Typescript, some build tools, a couple of frameworks, etc.

The amount of JS we ship to clients is a reflection of cost-cutting measures at your workplace, not that every FE dev shuns CSS.

wvenable 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can't see how a bunch of esoteric incantations are better than just some straight-forward easy to understand and follow JavaScript.

berkes 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Is that "straight-forward easy to understand and follow JavaScript" the whole thing written from scratch? Or does it use libraries (that use libraries, that use libraries)?

Because I've written my share of javascript-from-scratch in my time - before npm and such. And even if my use-case was limited, in order to get edge-cases and details working - issues long solved by their HTML/CSS counterparts - we needed more and more JS. Many of which handwritten polyfills, agent-detection, etc.

Seriously, things like scrollbars (because the client insisted on them being consistent across user-agents) or dropdowns (because they had to be styled) "visited" state on links, in pure JS are thousands of lines of code. Maybe not today, anymore, IDK, with current APIs like the history API or aria labeling. But back then, just in order to make the dropdown work with screen readers, or the scrollbars react well to touchpads -in the direction the user was used to based on their OS- took us thousands of lines of JS, hacks, workarounds and very hard to follow code - because of the way the "solutions" were spread out over the exact right combination of JS, HTML and CSS. Edit: I now recall we got the web-app back with the comment "When I select "Language" and start typing "Fr" I expect French to be picked and "enter" to then put the language in French". We spent another few days on functions that collect character inputs in memory and then match them with values. All because "flags in front of the names were of crucial importance".

So, maybe this is solved in modern HTML/CSS/JS. But I highly doubt it. I think "some straight-forward ... JavaScript" is either an `import { foo } from foobar` or a pipe-dream in the area of "programmers always underestimate hours"

yurishimo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because you need 20x the JS to do the same thing and it’s still not hardware accelerated. These new CSS properties are well supported and will only get better.

pikuseru 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because a team of browser engineers have already written and reviewed the code to do it for you; and (hopefully) it’ll be performant, properly tested and accessible… ;-D

onion2k 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

JS animations run on the main thread with everything else, so if your browser is busy doing something else the animation ends up being janky. Using CSS solves that problem.

dekoidal 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is CSS too hard to learn or something?

paulddraper 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

1. CSS is declarative, so it avoid subtle bugs

2. CSS integrates better with HTML, as it has selectors to automatically bind to elements (yes there custom elements for JS)

llmslave2 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

@starting-style Has less than 90% browser support making it a non-starter for the time being at least.

jakelazaroff 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It'll just degrade gracefully into not animating the element's entry, so unless the animation is somehow crucial you should still be fine to use it.

If you really need to detect whether it's supported there are hacky methods: https://www.bram.us/2024/07/11/feature-detect-css-starting-s...

bryanrasmussen 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree, but must also observe that I have never met a designer who was willing to admit without a knock-down drag-out fight that any animation they put in was not somehow crucial.

mikedelfino 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The trick is they'll see it working for themselves. :)

sfn42 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I've never met a designer who wasn't completely fine with my suggestions for more pragmatic solutions. Like just styling a default scrollbar instead of implementing my own scrollbar to make it exactly like the design. Using a default drop-down menu instead of rolling my own just so I can round the corners of the selects.

The designers I've worked with are fine with these things. We have more important things to work on than small style details. We can go back and change these things later if anyone actually cares, but generally nobody ever does.

paulddraper 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

91% of usage for browsers tracked by caniuse [1].

The biggest gap is Chrome versions > 2 years old.

[1] https://caniuse.com/?search=%40starting-style

RussianCow 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You say awesome, I say layers upon layers of opaque incantations I have to remember. Thank god for LLMs.

pikuseru 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

“Layers upon layers of opaque incantations”

You’ve described software.

sfn42 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're doing it wrong. You don't have to remember the incantations. You just have to remember that they exist, and then google them or ask an LLM when you need them.

If you use something enough you'll remember. If you don't, you just look it up when you need it. This is basic programming, nobody remembers everything.

nchmy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And how might you do this in Javascript?

bryanrasmussen 4 hours ago | parent [-]

they just said "LLMS"!

nchmy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

My point was that js would be vastly more complicated than these html/css "incantations".

davidmurdoch 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Most front end engineers could do it in JS without ever having to look something up. But the CSS to do it is still obscure to most.

qudat 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Animating accordions is almost always a bad idea because the content length can make it unbearable.

In general I find animations on the web overused and unnecessary

xp84 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Seriously. As a user I can count on zero hands the number of times I’ve said “Oh great, I’m sure glad this UI is animated!” - and likewise zero times have I missed it when animation isn’t used. Animation is a way to light small units of your users’ precious time on fire, for zero benefit.

ozlikethewizard 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As the other user alluded to, Animations are not actually there for people who are comfortable using a computer. The vast majority of users are borderlines in capable of using the internet these days. Animations are supposed to be there to really help guide these users into understanding what the scary machine is doing when they click it. Can they be overused, absolutely, but i think have an accordion fold out animated is a reasonable case. You gotta remember your average user isnt paying any fucking attention, so drawing their attention to important changes on screen is not only good but necessary. I'd prefer no animations ever, but i also dont own an iphone while the majority of the world either does or wants to.

ben_w 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

That's the positive interpretation, but none of the discussions I've had with UI designers or managers have been about adding animation for accessibility, and the zeitgeist of the last decade has been that skeuomorphism (of which intuitive animations are a subset) is passé.

So far as I can tell, all that the stakeholders want from the UI, animations included, is pizzazz.

normie3000 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Animations are also a way to explain causal relationships between interactions and their results, and to help build mental models of software behaviour.

TeMPOraL 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Being related to neither software behavior nor the structure of the underlying problem, animations tend to obscure the causal relationships and make it harder for user to build a correct mental model.

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
danw1979 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does it need animating ?

lelanthran 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Animating the details element is tricky. By the spec, browsers don’t natively support transitions between display: none and display: block.

Very hot take; then don't animate them!

Animation in a UI is great - you draw the user's attention to a widget that changed because they might not necessarily notice it otherwise. This improves the UX.

With a details/summary, the animation is not needed and can only make a negative change to the UX. There is no positive change to the UX that animating the details/summary elements would bring. When it is opened it is obvious.

If you really really need to animate the details, instead of animating open/close, instead animate the summary background/text color to indicate that the element has just changed state.

Would I like easy animation of open/close? Sure. Does it improve the UX? Nope.

10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
computerfriend 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can put a transition on details > summary.

stephenr 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> browsers don’t natively support transitions between display: none and display: block.

You say that like it's a bad thing.