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mcc1ane 11 hours ago

> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me.

ELI5, please!

throwup238 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Spain’s colonies funneled huge amounts of gold and silver into the European economies without a complementary increase in productivity to absorb it, causing massive inflation.

A ship for transatlantic shipping might have first cost 100,000 maravedí to build and equip before the treasure fleet expeditions, but afterwards with so much gold flowing into the economy and lots of competition for a limited ship building industry, the costs would inflate to 1 million maravedí (number roughly from memory). Same with the canons and shot, animals and sailor salaries, and so on.

Meanwhile, shipbuilders with all their newfound money are competing for blacksmiths, the outfitters are competing for livestock and horses, and so on. This puts lots of pressure on the rest of society which might need the iron for farming tools and the livestock to survive the winter, which they can no longer afford since the conquistadors and their merchants can pay a lot more in gold. In the end the maravedí accounts look bigger but represent the same amount of physical goods or labor.

Repeat this process across the whole economy and it throws everything into chaos. Some people here and there get rich, but economy wide it’s a total wash. Any wealth created for the state mostly just went into paying for wars because the inflation worked its way up through salaries.

ares623 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

hold up a minute

financetechbro 4 hours ago | parent [-]

We’re sadly living through the same thing right now

username135 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Time is a flat circle

kristianp an hour ago | parent [-]

Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And people won't point to the actual causes:

- The COVID free-money needed to be less and to end sooner

- The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner

The disease didn't go away, we just at one point decided we were done with restrictions even though conditions didn't change.

We needed restrictions ONLY during spikes and more consideration needed to be given to the long term economic effects of COVID policies.

An example graph, when restrictions should have been on or off left as an exercise to the reader

https://wgntv.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2022/01/tuedeat...

The problem is it became a non-expert political issue where people who knew meme-facts based on their social bubble only really argued absolutist policies against stone wall opposition.

We needed people in a minmax mode arguing about specific levels of risk vs reward to set optimums, instead you had 0 risk folks screaming at 0 restriction folks screaming back with the middle entirely excluded. (We'll STILL get people on both sides responding here)

ares623 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

I was in NZ during COVID. I was adamantly pro-lockdowns. In hindsight, it was a very selfish view. It benefitted my family directly and I was more than happy to follow the rules and scoff at those that didn’t.

I won’t claim to know what the appropriate response level should have been back then. But it is very clear that the whole affair has hurt and damaged people and society irreparably. The only winners are the wealthy who scooped up assets at never-before seen interest rates.

littlestymaar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This entirely misses the fact that Spain became a European superpower during that period because war was then done by mercenaries…

> Any wealth created for the state mostly just went into paying for wars because the inflation worked its way up through salaries.

Wealth created for the state just went into paying for wars because that what mattered to the early modern aristocracy and that's what they wanted to pay with their additional money. From the point of view of the Spanish elite of the time, their “wealth” increased dramatically during that period, it's just that this don't fit your or my criteria for wealth.

vondur 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They spent it on war. The Spaniards were fighting the Ottoman Empire and the Relgious Wars brought on by the Protestant Reformation. Funny enough their main enemy for the religious wars was France, who was also Catholic. The Spaniards also went bankrupt multiple times too.

goodcanadian 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a sibling comment said, gold was effectively money. Having more money, without having more products to buy, effectively triggered massive inflation. Prices went up, but the actual supply of goods and services didn't change much. The Spanish economy suffered massive inflation, as did Europe in general to a lessor extent.

nickff 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Notably, the 'massive inflation' was a rate of 1-1.5% per year...

AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Which, for the gold standard, is still rather shocking.

SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well only with a fairly fixed amount of gold available. If suddenly a vast new supply of gold is discovered, its not shocking that there would be inflation.

colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Since the industrial revolution productivity has actually been increasing and automation continues to make this happen.

If you don't have a mechanism for productivity increase matching your inflation it's just making whoever is creating the new money temporarily proportionally wealthier until the money spreads everywhere.

ijk 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's interesting that mining gold and silver is similar to printing more money; we usually think of inflation as represented by debasing coinage but there's been a few circumstances where flooding the local economy with precious metals is the same effect.

nradov 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We sometimes see similar localized effects when wealthy foreign governments and NGOs go into poor countries to "help" with foreign aid and investment. When done correctly this can boost the local economy in a sustainable way, kind of priming the pump. But often it just dumps a lot of cash in, causing price inflation as the supply of goods and services fails to keep pace with the supply of money.

colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Outside influence heavily distorts local economies and needs to be done extremely carefully or you end up making a few people rich and starving everybody else.

WillAdams 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

Heifer International presents a good face on doing this be introducing livestock, providing education to the new owners, and imparting an in-kind donation requirement so as to perpetuate and spread the gains.

Gibbon1 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In the latter 1800 there wasn't enough gold to accommodate the vast increases in industrial production. Which was deflationary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Gold_speech

You can imagine every year the price per bushel of the wheat you grow drops and your mortgage stays the same. When your whole economy is like that no one wants to borrow or lend money and investment slows.

esafak 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bullion imports caused inflation; the money supply increased without corresponding increases in the production of goods and services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

kristianp 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What an interesting topic. One of the further reading links is to a paper that claims the inflation started earlier in the 1500s, due in part to the rise of German silver mining: https://web.archive.org/web/20110706211346/http://repec.econ...

It would be interesting to learn about the technological developments Spain failed to make compared to some of their European neighbours. Merchant banking is one of them.

adastra22 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Money is the thing you use to buy things. Wealth is having those things. Only in an ideal world are the two the same. The world is not ideal.

PessimalDecimal 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But why couldn't they, e.g. buy other people's thing in exchange for their gold? IOW, why is the relevant fact that _Spain_ didn't have much more wealth despite having more gold? Other people in other countries valued (and still value) gold too.

Ekaros 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Think of difference between buying bunch of cars from someone making cars. Instead of buying the factory making cars.

Or maybe currently RAM. You found pile of money somewhere. You buy big amount of RAM. RAM prices go up, you do not care you have money. In a few years DDR6 comes out. The RAM you bought is not that expensive anymore. You do not really have either money or something currently expensive.

Wealth is owning the land, the machines, the buildings, the knowledge(more so now). Being rich is owning lot of what can buy those things. But if you keep spending liquid wealth, eventually it is gone and you are not wealthy anymore.

derf_ 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can, but then those people have more money, and you have less. The money supply is much smaller than the supply of goods and services, because the same money circulates repeatedly. So simply doubling your money can tilt things a little more your way, but does not make the situation completely lopsided, because you can only spend the extra money once.

Also, to quote Jastram [0], "In spite of the romanticism of the Spanish Main and treasure ships, the supply of gold from the New World was just a trickle by later standards. Less than 1% of what was to be 1930 world production was produced in each of the years from 1500 to 1520." Over the next 80 years, it never got much above 1.3%.

[0] Roy W. Jastram, The Golden Constant (1977), pg. 41.

usefulcat 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They could and they did. That meant that Spain ended up importing more and exporting less, which would have been bad for Spanish businesses.

There’s a lot more to “wealth” than just having a bunch of stuff. Especially in the long term, since most “stuff” will wear out or otherwise decay over time.

analog31 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That may be true, but a modern money system could get you pretty close to that ideal, where the main difference is the friction of transactions.

It's close to ideal for a loaf of bread, or a bag of nails. I can hop on my bike and turn my money into either of those things in a few minutes. Turning money into a house is further from that ideal of course.

cherryteastain 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations explores the topic in depth

rr808 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Today - if you give everyone $10 million dollars there isn't enough production for everyone to buy what they want - you just get inflation. Its probably worse for the economy as people stop working.

wongarsu 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They spent a lot of resources (some tangible, some less tangible) and ended up getting a roughly equivalent amount of money out if it

Herring 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's just investing vs extracting/exploitation. Both can get you rich, but one is short-term and the other is long-term.

Consider what that means for sustainability and the future.

HPsquared 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can't eat gold.

cenamus 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You also can't eat money, but I imagine it's pretty useful if you're hungry

lazide 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If all the sudden someone airdrops a hundred tons of $100 bills into your area, you are going to have a hard time buying food with just the $20 in your wallet.

That is what is being discussed.

gtdhvy 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can though. People eat gold all the time.

nkrisc 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Fine: you can't physiologically sustain yourself on a diet of gold alone. Gold is not a nutritionally complete diet. If all you have to eat is gold, you will soon be dead.

conception 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actual EL5 - Stregga Nona but with money.

hecanjog 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How is this the top comment on a hacker news article... we all can't be bothered to use any critical thinking skills? Explain it to me like I'm 5 is seriously the most up-voted sentiment? This place has been proclaiming it's on a downtrend for years, but I think I finally believe it.

Edit: I believe in plain-speaking. "ELI5" being code for this is weird to me but if that's really what it is, cool. If it's really a code for "I want to understand this more deeply without jargon" I get it.

If it's code for "I don't want to understand this, just tell me the answer" then I don't really understand the appeal on a site like hacker news... that's the perspective that made me post initially. What is curious about this?

delbronski 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Smugness level 110. It is a good question. Get over yourself please.

hecanjog 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Fair enough, but I disagree that it's a good question. "Explain it to me like I'm 5" (not even written out in words, just the abbreviation we all know) is not a curious place to come from, it is a desire for the quickest path to the end/payoff.

busyant 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think you're taking the comment too literally.

I took it to mean something like, "I won't understand an abstruse Ph.D.-level explanation of what happened. I need an explanation geared toward the layperson."

In fact, I think that's closer to the essence of ELI5--as opposed to literally explaining something at the 5 year old level.

I suppose you can quibble about using the initialism, ELI, but only if you're advocating for people who might be unfamiliar with its use. Otherwise, I don't understand your complaint.

hecanjog 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think that I am. I don't think that they want to be treated like they're 5, but I do think they don't want to put thought into it. We're training ourselves to offload critical thinking and I was surprised to see it driving the conversation here.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
Loughla 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Eli5 is a common way of asking for clarification. That's all.

hecanjog 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It's common, I know what it means. It communicated its intent properly, I think. It's surprising to me that a venture capital finance site would need to clarify the difference between value and wealth, and I would be interested in hearing questions about this, but "ELI5" doesn't even meet the basic criteria for being a question. It asks no questions.

zdragnar a minute ago | parent [-]

Not to mention one could easily search Google for "wealth versus value" and get tons of explanations in a few seconds.

People just like having things handed to them I guess.