Remix.run Logo
CGamesPlay 9 hours ago

Georgian is really interesting. Very few cognates for non-modern words. Colors in Georgian are fun: you don't have "brown", you have "coffee-color" (ყავისფერი / ყავის ფერი); you don't have "light blue", you have "sky-color" (ცისფერი / ცის ფერი).

selcuka 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you don't have "brown", you have "coffee-color"

It's coffee-colour (kahverengi) in Turkish as well, but I don't find it interesting. The English word "orange" is after a fruit as well (which is also the same in Turkish: "portakal rengi", or "turuncu").

lordgrenville 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sky-colour makes sense, but coffee drinking only goes back to the 15th century or so. Did Georgians not have a word for this colour before then?!

CGamesPlay 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Given that this pattern appears in several Georgian colors (the color purple is also just "lilac-color": იასამნისფერი / იასამნის ფერი), I'm sure they just used a different brown thing before coffee was common.

jeroenhd 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

English didn't have the word "orange" until relatively recently (1500s) either. That's despite the word brown (which is the same colour in a different context) going back millenia.

Names change as language changes. It's hard to imagine Georgian didn't have a word for brown, but that would've been a completely different word that got displaced over time, like yellow-red was displaced by orange.

integralid an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No idea about Georgian but that's not unusual - for example English didn't have color for orange for a long time. That's why you say "red hair" even though the color is orange.

adrian_b an hour ago | parent [-]

While English did not have a dedicated word for "orange" there are many examples in older English texts where there was written "red-yellow" or "yellow-red" in the places where modern English would use "orange".

So the color was recognized, even if it did not have a special name.

adrian_b an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

There have been many authors who have claimed about various old languages that they lacked words for some colors, and "brown" is one of the most frequent colors about which such claims have been made.

I believe that most such claims, if not all, were wrong. The problem is that when reading an ancient text in which colors are mentioned it is very difficult to guess which is the color that is meant by some word and it frequently is difficult to even be sure that the word refers to a color and not to some other kind of property of an object.

There are very rare cases when the text says something like "this object is X like blood", so you can infer that X = "red", or "this object is Y like the sky", so you can infer that Y = "blue".

Brown is a color for which it is even rarer to find suitable comparisons in a text, from which the color can be inferred, than for colors like red, green or blue, which are typically compared to blood, grass and sky.

So when various authors have claimed that there was no word for "brown" in some old language, the truth was that they just were unable to find any word whose meaning could be determined with certainty to be "brown", in the preserved texts, even if there were plenty of words that most likely meant "brown".

Moreover, in nature there are many shades of brown, lighter or darker, more reddish or more yellowish, which is why in many languages there are multiple words for brown, which are derived from various things that have that particular shade of brown, e.g. words that mean coffee-brown, chestnut-brown, dry-earth brown, brown like the fur of certain animals, etc. Such words that identify a particular shade with reference to a familiar object have been renewed from time to time, in function of which objects have become more familiar or less familiar. After coffee became a very popular beverage, in many languages it has replaced whatever reference object was previously used for a dark brown.

As an example, many have claimed that Ancient Greek had no word for "brown". However, when reading Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, i.e. the oldest Greek texts except for the Mycenaean tablets, there already are a lot of places where there is no doubt that "brown" was meant by the word "aithono-". This is an adjective derived from the verb "to burn", and most dictionaries say that it means "burning". However, in the actual texts there are plenty of places where it does not mean "burning", but it means "burnt", more precisely "having the color of burnt wood", i.e. brown. This is not surprising. Another word used in the same way is "anthrakos", which can be used either for an object red like a burning ember (e.g. for red garnets or rubies) or for an object black like an extinguished ember (e.g. for charcoal or coal).

cryptoegorophy 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe polish is similar. They have “sky color” which is pretty cool!

cyberax 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "coffee-color"

The Russian word for "brown" is literally "cinnamon-colored" ("коричневый"). And the Chinese language just uses the literal "coffee-colored" phrase (咖啡色).

tguvot 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Actually brown in russian it's "bark-colored". bark = кора. Корица (cinnamon) is diminutive

d_silin 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can also use "кофейный" (coffee-coloured) as synonym for "brown".

koakuma-chan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

That wouldn't be natural though. You would never describe, say, pants, as "coffee-coloured" in Russian.

galkk 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Брюки цвета кофе is natural in Russian. Pretentious, but still natural.

koakuma-chan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

"Брюки цвета кофе" ("pants of coffee color") is natural, "коричневые брюки" ("brown pants") is natural, but "кофейные брюки" is not. In fact the latter would likely be interpreted as "coffee pants" or "pants made out of coffee."

d_silin 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"кофейного цвета брюки" is acceptable too.

koakuma-chan 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I admit that. I also realize that tguvot is actually arguing in my favor, as he said that coffee color is distinct from brown, and therefore the inference is that they aren't synonymous. I would summarize that they are conceptually different, as "brown" is a real color, whereas "coffee color" is a marketing color.

tguvot 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"кофейные брюки" is totally ok. everybody will understand it.

it's just the way the russian language is. you can abuse it, you can come up with words that do not really exist in language and make no sense, yet, everybody will understand what you meant to say

koakuma-chan 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> "кофейные брюки" is totally ok. everybody will understand it.

If the context is clothes, people would likely be able to guess, sure. But consider another example "кофейная чашка" ("a coffee mug"). In this context, it would most certainly be interpreted as "a mug for coffee" and not as "a coffee-coloured mug." In other words, you must include the word "цвет" ("color") for it to be correct and unambiguous.

> it's just the way the russian language is. you can abuse it, you can come up with words that do not really exist in language and make no sense, yet, everybody will understand what you meant to say

I don't think this is unique to Russian. I'm sure you can do the same in English and Japanese at least.

tguvot 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"кофейная чашка" meaning will be resolved according to context where it's used

Don't know japanese, but english been main language that i consume in past 25 years or so. i never saw it abused to same degree as russian gets abused

LudwigNagasena 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s fine as an occasional stylistic choice, but using it repeatedly as a regular synonym for brown is a pragmatic and collocational error. The meaning is clear, but the wording is marked, and overuse makes the speech sound odd in everyday contexts.

tguvot 4 hours ago | parent [-]

coffee color won't be synonym for brown. it will be distinct color, just like strawberry, raspberry, straw, ruby, etc colors.

d_silin 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would make your Russian more posh, eccentric or sophisticated, depending on the context, but not necessary unnatural.

tguvot 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

actually you will. "coffee color" it's distinct from brown. And then there is also "coffee with milk" color.

Won't be surprised if there is "pumpkin latte" color nowdays.

koakuma-chan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Uh huh. Don't forget "aliceblue" and "rebeccapurple." But seriously, those are just arbitrary marketing aliases, aren't they. I remember e-shopping for sneakers, and every brand's "off-white" was a different color.

inkyoto 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Colours are fun in many languages.

For instance, Japanese and Vietnamese do not differentiate between blue and green and require context specific clarification, e.g «traffic light blue-green».

nephihaha 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Celtic languages, and I believe Mayan, had a similar thing going on with blue and green. A lot of languages never distinguished orange from yellow really either.

rvrs 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Japanese has a word for green now 緑 (midori). Traffic lights use the word for blue for historical reasons

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
SanjayMehta 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are several Hindi words for brown, my favourite is "Badami" - almond-like.

My grandfather used "laal" which is usually used for red. I used to wonder if he was colour blind.

ku-man 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]