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cm2187 8 hours ago

I know that attributing to western countries the responsability for any bad thing happening in this world is a common reflex, but we are 30 years after the handover, 40 years after the negotiation, so surely China bears some if not pretty much all the responsibility here.

And it's not like the UK had much of a choice in the first place. China threatened to invade and there is very little the UK could have done to prevent a full control.

Worth also remembering that "one country, two systems" came with an expiration date that is rapidly approaching anyway.

woooooo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The Chinese absolutely bear responsibility for how they've governed the last 30 years, just as the British bear responsibility for how they governed the prior 150.

The fact that British HK liberalized a little at the very last second before handover is better than nothing, and the National Security Law is definitely bad, but right now the scoreboard is 7/150 years of free speech under the UK, compared to 23/28 years of free speech under PRC. It'll take another 100 years for the PRC to have a worse record than the UK.

dangus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it’s somewhat disingenuous to ignore the trend direction.

The Netherlands has a longer history of monarchy under their current government (present monarchy founded 1813) than North Korea (current government established 1948). Does that mean you’d rather live in North Korea than the Netherlands?

The plain and obvious fact remains that Hong Kongers would have more political liberties today if the UK retained control of the territory, regardless of the complete colonial insanity of the original arrangement.

Can you name one present existing British overseas territory that has less of a right to criticize the government than Hong Kong? There are still a bunch of them to choose from from.

woooooo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Wasn't meaning to ignore the trend, the PRC bears full responsibility for their actions. Just saying that complaints from the British in particular are a little rich.

Also they appear to be arresting more people for speech in total and per-capita than HK:

https://insider.iea.org.uk/p/30-people-arrested-daily-for-sp...

https://insider.iea.org.uk/p/30-people-arrested-daily-for-sp...

dangus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t see any discussion about complaints from the British in this thread.

maxglute 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or surely PRC should get all the praise for diffusing geopolitical traps UK like to leave whenever they lose a colony. Patton threw a curve ball right before handover to last minute liberalize HK a little to hold onto influence, something they didn't do under UK rule. Of course it was geopolitical trap to make PRC look bad if they ever decide take away from HK what UK never provided, but PRC managed to do it anyway and most of world, i.e. global south got example that it is possible to excise legacy colonial tumors from declining empires who choose not to pass gracefully.

spaqin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that liberalization (giving ever so slightly more freedom) would increase foreign UK influence post handover.

QGQBGdeZREunxLe 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I know that attributing to western countries the responsability [sic] for any bad thing happening in this world is a common reflex

I don't think I'm being superficial here. There are a few distinct events during the 20th century which can be attributed to the British. The handover of Hong Kong, Suez Crisis and the Balfour Declaration stand out the most.

> And it's not like the UK had much of a choice in the first place. China threatened to invade and there is very little the UK could have done to prevent a full control.

The leased territories are Chinese territory. Full stop. Hong Kong island and the ceded land could not survive alone. All of the water processing happens in the New Territories. It would have been impossible to either break up HK or defend it.

https://i.redd.it/zghghoib1k1a1.png

China has not rolled back any reforms that happened before negotiations began [0]. They did rollback the last-ditch efforts of Chris Patten [1] because at that point it was seen a malicious attempt to undermine the handover.

The mechanisms for China to take control were largely left in place by the British so they bare some responsibility, but it is the PRC asserting this control and there's an argument to be made that most of HK supports the PRC and it's their right to do what they wish with their own territory.

> Worth also remembering that "one country, two systems" came with an expiration date that is rapidly approaching anyway.

It'll be interesting to see what is kept. China's experimenting already in Hainan. They could structure Hong Kong in a similar fashion.

[0] - The PRC did introduce PR with the idea that it would reduce the risk of majorities forming but the system is arguably more democratic than FPTP.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Hong_Kong_electoral_refor...

p_j_w 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I know that attributing to western countries the responsability for any bad thing happening in this world is a common reflex

You can’t gloat that the sun never sets on your empire and then absolve yourself from responsibility for events that you had a heavy hand in influencing. Regardless, if you think the article is wrong, your point would he better served by providing examples of where it’s wrong and stating why.

dangus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How many years does it take for that influence to expire? In 40 years many/most of the people involved in the old system aren’t even alive anymore.

That would be like blaming me for the Gulf War when I was in diapers.

linkregister 2 hours ago | parent [-]

We can attribute cause and effect to countries without implicating any individual citizen.