| ▲ | cogman10 10 hours ago |
| > While it is a human right to own property and use it to rationally pursue one's self-interests, that does not mean that capitalism in its current form is conducive to that for the greatest number of people, or to the evolution of other human rights in the societies in which capitalism is practiced. I'd argue that communism is the only system of government that guarantees property for all. That's somewhat a core tenant that every member in a communist society collectively owns everything. Capitalism is optimized to reduce or eliminate property access. For example, a free market capitalist has no problems with a very rich individual buying a city and perpetually renting the property to it's employees at rates above their salary, putting them in perpetual debt to that individual. They own nothing and can't escape their circumstances. Nor can their children. Capitalism with minimal or no regulation naturally devolves into feudalism. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > a core tenant that every member in a communist society collectively owns everything Everyone owns the world oceans (“common heritage of humanity”). How is that going for its fisheries and sea bottoms. |
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| ▲ | krainboltgreene 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah man I don't think co-op fisheries are the problem here. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > don't think co-op fisheries are the problem here Co-op fisheries are owned by the co-op. They aren’t a problem and regulate access. Common heritage fisheries are trawled unregulated because when everyone owns something, nobody owns it. For the communist model to work, the state has to own everything. Which in practice means apparatchiks control everything. | | |
| ▲ | krainboltgreene an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > For the communist model to work, the state has to own everything. At first I used co-op's because I just assumed you meant democratically controlled companies rather than "communism" and now I know you don't know what communism means. "state has to own anything" is an extremely funny idea for a stateless society. | |
| ▲ | saubeidl 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We could finally try finish the experiment Allende started before the CIA couped away a democratically elected president. Do something like project Cybersyn [0], but give all decision making to a digital planning engine. No humans, no apparatchiks. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn | | |
| ▲ | nradov 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's so naive. Economic central planning is a fool's errand. Regardless of how good the computers are, it can never work because it's impossible to gather accurate demand data. Only free market economics can ever work at scale over the long term. | | |
| ▲ | krainboltgreene an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Economic central planning is a fool's errand. crazy, because the two biggest cases of economic central planning are the USSR which grew faster than any civilization ever (a literacy rate of 30% to 100% in 60 years) and China who is currently making the United States world power look like a toddler. There's clearly something to central planning, it's still up in the air if you can totally plan an economy centrally. I tend to agree with Chibber. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | As I stated above, economic central planning can never work over the long term. The USSR didn't last very long, and it turns out that most of their economic statistics were fake anyway. Communists always lie about everything. China still doesn't exert much power in world affairs. And their economic successes over the past few decades have come about by embracing free market principles. The stuff they tried to centrally plan has largely failed. |
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| ▲ | saubeidl 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is nothing but an ideological statement without any evidence, one that is being disproven as we speak. Free market economics haven't worked out great for the vast majority of people. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Free market economics is working great for the vast majority of people. Median living standards in capitalism countries are higher than ever. Regardless of ideology the data is quite clear on this point. | | | |
| ▲ | mopsi 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Go ahead, plan my Christmas Eve. What time I wake up, what time I leave the house, which routes I take, what things I buy. Assign the kWhs of electricity and liters of water and fuel that I'll use up, plan ingredients for my meals of the day. The belief that a central "digital planning engine" could plan the lives of an entire society is an incredibly naive idea from early cybernetics. This doesn't work even in small thought experiments because of information limits. No central system can access all the local knowledge and constantly changing circumstances. |
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| ▲ | mopsi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I'd argue that communism is the only system of government that guarantees property for all. That's somewhat a core tenant that every member in a communist society collectively owns everything.
This year, I knit a scarf for a friend as a Christmas gift. He already owns several scarves, unlike some other people who own none, but might need one more than he does. How is that collective ownership supposed to work here? Are you going to take that scarf away from me and "assign" it to someone you deem more deserving? I'll resist and you'll have to take it from me by force. And if you do, I'll stop knitting altogether, because why bother if I never get the chance to gift it to my friend. What are you going to do when you need the next scarf, force me to work?If the answer is "yes", you've just reinvented a communist dictatorship. If it's a "no", then such society will run out of food and goods, and something better will rise to replace it. |
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| ▲ | cogman10 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Communism doesn't entail owning nothing or being able to produce nothing. It often even has a concept of money to trade for goods and services. So you could take your earnings, buy some yarn, knit your friend a scarf, and there's no real change in societies. The difference is that you'd get your money from a state run industry. Your home would be guaranteed. And where you ultimately end up working would be based on your capabilities. You are free to knit or whittle gifts for friends. What you wouldn't be free to do is setup "mopsi's scarf business" without working through the state. You wouldn't be allowed to take the earning from "mopsi's scarf business" and use them to become a landlord. You could gain social status and benefits by running the scarf business, but those would be limited (barring corruption). When I say "a communist society collectively owns everything" I'm talking mainly businesses, land, housing. A mistake that people often make about communism is thinking it means "Everything is free" or "nobody owns anything". That's more of a collectivist approach. Communism is mostly centered around providing minimum guarantees through public ownership. | | |
| ▲ | mopsi 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You are free to knit or whittle gifts for friends. What you wouldn't be free to do is setup "mopsi's scarf business" without working through the state. You wouldn't be allowed to take the earning from "mopsi's scarf business" and use them to become a landlord.
If my scarves become so popular that even strangers begin offering money for them, I won't be interested in working for the state for basic necessities while the state takes the rest.I'd rather barter with others for the useful things they produce. My friend, for example, grows excellent tomatoes. Over time, if we have many friends, we will live comfortable lives, while loners will wither away. Is this an acceptable outcome for you as the dictator of the Bestest Communist Paradise on Planet Earth (BCPPE), or will you do something about it? | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I won't be interested in working for the state for basic necessities while the state takes the rest. Better contributions lead to better rewards. You might be able to buy more things if you setup an underground business, but you'd still be stuck in whatever house you currently live in (for example). You can get much nicer accommodations and a higher salary with bigger and better contributions to the state. That's the motivation for people to not just be farmers. > I'd rather barter with others for the useful things they produce. My friend, for example, grows excellent tomatoes. That's fine. Communism wouldn't stop simple bartering. > Over time, if we have many friends, we will live comfortable lives, while loners will wither away. Loners would be taken care of by the state. They don't wither. The place where the communist state would step in is if you moved from simple barter to actually owning and operating businesses (where you employ people, give them a salary, etc). Again, mopsi's scarf business wouldn't be allowed without state approval. But you making scarfs for your community in exchange for the communities homemade stuff would not only be welcome but encouraged. > Is this an acceptable outcome for you as the dictator of the Bestest Communist Paradise on Planet Earth (BCPPE), or will you do something about it? I don't understand your snark. I get that you hate communism. Again, as I stated elsewhere, I'm not a communist. I don't think misunderstanding and misrepresenting the position of communists does you any good if you are trying to convince others that it's a bad ideology. I should also state that I'm basically just talking about simple marxism. However, I think what I'm describing applies to most forms of communism. If you like I can give you my critique of communism. | | |
| ▲ | mopsi 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Loners would be taken care of by the state. They don't wither.
How? Where does the state take scarves and tomatoes from if we only produce as much as we need within our own circle and exchange them solely among friends?This is not as trivial question as it may sound. In the USSR, where I grew up, this was classified as a crime of "speculation". People were jailed and their property confiscated to intimidate others to work for the state without bypassing the forced redistribution. The question of gifting a scarf to a friend, when someone else might need it more, is in disguise, the central question of communism. There is no way to preserve my freedom to give the scarf or other fruits of my labor to whomever I please (or keep it for myself) while simultaneously satisfying the needs of those whose needs are unmet. There simply aren't enough scarves to make everyone happy. If you try to coerce me, I won't knit any scarves at all, or they'll be of very poor quality. This is essentially how and why the USSR stagnated for decades until it collapsed under its own weight. By the end, despite coercion, productivity had fallen so low that people with physical access to goods (like truck drivers) resorted to bartering, while others (like university professors) starved. The all-powerful state that was supposed to "take care of everything" was nowhere to be seen; they were busy bartering tanks for chicken. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This really gets at the core problems with communism as I see it. For starters I think the only way for communism to actually work would be with robust checks and balances in place to properly address corruption within the government. AFAIK, basically all communist governments have started as autocracies. That's a really bad combo for corruption. The ideal communist state would arise from democracy, but I don't think democracy will ever create a communist state. Next, I don't really think state control of all markets is a good idea. A good state would be too slow to react market requirements. You really want your population to self sort and organize as much as possible. That's what makes sure everyone gets all the scarfs they want. That said, I think there are fundamental duties that capitalism does not properly handle. For example, building roads or running a fire department. Capitalism, IMO, works best when there is a truly competitive market in place. Food production would be a good example where capitalism works well (but still might need government support since it's vital to survive). Now to the USSR specifically (but AFAIK a lot of communist states are like this) the other big problem that goes along with corruption is that there aren't really second chances. I have a coworker that grew up the USSR and he mentioned this with schooling. Fail a class, fall behind, or need extra help and boom. The better job is permanently locked out and you have to settle for a crappy job. A chinese roommate of mine describe a similar phenomena in China. As it turns out, all the wealthy chinese families still ended up in positions of power and relationship ultimately mattered a lot more than competence. I think this mostly comes from the state optimizing for the wrong things. They assume that people wouldn't want to work on farms or that farmers would always want to be farmers. One of the benefits of a capitalist society is that, while no trivial, changing professions is accessible to pretty much everyone. The core problem with the USSR's version of communism is that it concentrated too much power on too few people (well, and the fact that stalin operated by both being drunk and keeping all the heads of state perpetually drunk). People can get weird ideas (like mao's feelings towards birds) and putting too much power in those individuals' hands is doomed to pain for the citizenry. Some problems are best solved by a little bit of market anarchy. |
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| ▲ | charlescearl 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Private property” in the socialist sense is property which is used for production (note that socialist countries - Laos, Vietnam, USSR before the destruction of socialism - typically have 80%+ rates of home ownership). Collective control of factories, land used for commodity & social (i.e. feeding people) production. There are many writings that address this misconception. Communist Manifesto https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Man... provides a succinct response. You might also search for what class owns most of the property in the united states. | | |
| ▲ | mopsi 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Lived in the USSR; it is best explored through small business and personal ownership instead of large words and manifestos. The thing is, work is hard. People need an incentive to put in the hours. If the state requisitions everything above a certain threshold to prevent wealth disparities, as the communists did in the USSR with grain beyond what farmers needed for sustenance, people will not work beyond the threshold out of the goodness of their hearts. Why work extra hours on the fields if you get nothing out of it? Instead, production will drop to exactly meet that threshold. This is how famines were created. To maintain production while still requisitioning, you will have to force people to work for free. > USSR before the destruction of socialism - typically have 80%+ rates of home ownership
Actually, less than 10%. Homes were owned by a government housing department. When you finished school, you were assigned a workplace and given an apartment. Often it was just a room in a shared apartment (kommunalka). You could live there as long as you kept the job. If you were transferred elsewhere, you had to pack your things and move. The quality of housing was comparable to the homes of methheads in West Virginia. The temporary and impersonal nature of the arrangement bred crime and other social problems. In short, the USSR was one huge "company town" that you could never leave. |
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| ▲ | psunavy03 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Communism as such has never existed and will never exist because it ignores human nature. Private property rights are a fundamental tenet of human psychology. But hey, in defiance of 100+ years of failed attempts, if you want to see Politburos putting people in gulags again for being counterrevolutionaries . . . sure, give it another go. Capitalism is the worst economic system that has ever been tried . . . except for all the others. |
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| ▲ | Wilder7977 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Anthropologically speaking these statements about human fundamentals (or "human nature") end up falling flat.
There have been plenty of societies organized in ways such that private property was irrelevant when existing at all. I suggest "Debt" from David Graeber for a great dissertation of this topic (which is not the core topic, but definitely touched). All of this without considering that private property of means of production is different from private property in general. | |
| ▲ | nine_k 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | True communism has of course existed and likely still exists, but it's limited to small self-selected communities, like monastic retreats. Communism indeed is highly unlikely to works as a political state system, due to human nature. | |
| ▲ | jodrellblank 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Safety-nets for big companies so they can't fail, shared ownership for rich shareholders. Dog-eat-dog market forces, rugged individualism and bootstraps for the poor. Don't you think it's weird that the things communist Americans want, are the things Wealthy Capitalist Americans get, while telling the poor "those things don't work"? Central Planning sounds like a stupid idea, but why are all the big companies planned from a central HQ if everyone agrees that local planning is better? > "in defiance of 100+ years of failed attempts" Just curious, there wasn't any interference from outside during these 'failures' was there? Any trade embargoes? Any military intervention? Any assassinations? Any deliberate destabilizing? Any puppet governments? > "if you want to see Politburos putting people in gulags again for being counterrevolutionaries" There's 1.3 - 1.9 million people in American prisons now. 4.9 million who have been in prison. 19 million with felony convictions. Prisons are for-profit, and prisoners are used for forced labour, either paid nothing or paid less than minimum wage. The US ICE is disappearing people off the streets. The US president is targeting people who criticize him accusing them of treason (punishable by death)[1], recently writing """Chuck Schumer said trip was ‘a total dud’, even though he knows it was a spectacular success. Words like that are almost treasonous!""". Why is "Communism" the cause of gulags but "Capitalism" isn't the cause of mass incarceration, forced labour, and the government covering up how many people die while imprisoned? Why does this American "communism can't work, has never worked, and reminder Communism == mass graves" style comment always feel like a loud pledge of allegiance trying to make it clear to the powers that be that you aren't criticizing them, begging them not to disappear you? Are you not even allowed to entertain a different idea? To consider that even if any given Communism actually can't work and is crappy to live under, that what you're saying is more like a religious recital than something sensible? [1] https://time.com/7290536/miles-taylor-president-trump-treaso... | |
| ▲ | pessimizer 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Private property rights are a fundamental tenet of human psychology. This is a weird religious belief. Property rights are an entirely unnatural construction. Under normal circumstances, you own exactly what you can defend, no more, no less. Property rights are a communal imposition to protect the weak from the strong, and are no more natural than any other socialist endeavor. | |
| ▲ | cogman10 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | For the record, I'm not a communist. I'd probably say my values are pretty close to socialist-capitalist. And that is a form of government that many nations have adopted and are successfully running. What's been failing is neoliberalism. Every nation that's been moving in that direction has serious problems as their social safety nets have started to collapse. | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > socialist-capitalist What is this? Are the existing examples you mentioned considered examples of democratic socialism, or are you referring to something else? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No OP. But if it’s similar to what I believe in, it’s free-market capitalism for business (with provisions for market failure, e.g. antitrust and utility regulation), redistribution of wealth for individuals, strong individual investor and consumer rights, and the state providing the bare basics through the market (housing voucher, food voucher, public education or an education voucher, electricity voucher, water voucher, internet voucher, and public healthcare). | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It doesn't sound all that similar on the surface to OP's response based on my initial read of both. It seems like you're proposing a regulated free market in parallel with a highly regulated UBI? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > a regulated free market in parallel with a highly regulated UBI? No UBI. Just basics for survival guaranteed. You should not starve if you can't find work. That doesn't mean we can support a non-working population at leisure. (Which, in our current model, occurs at both ends of the income spectrum.) | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > No UBI. Just basics for survival guaranteed. That's why I called it a "highly regulated UBI", which might not have been clear. You're proposing that all citizens receive the basics for survival in kind instead of the cash equivalent (which is how a UBI would work). I think I prefer this model over what the OP ended up suggesting, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be in practice in the US. > That doesn't mean we can support a non-working population at leisure. Aren't the people who choose to live at a basic survival level living a life at leisure in your system? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Aren't the people who choose to live at a basic survival level living a life at leisure in your system? I suppose so, given they’re subsisting. It should not luxurious, however, and would probably carry with it a modicum of indignity. (Which is fine as long as they aren’t discriminated against.) |
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| ▲ | cogman10 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Basically this [1] And for who's done it, basically every capitalist nation at this point. Simply put it's recognizing that capitalism has failings but so does communism. It doesn't seek full state control of everything, just over industries where it's needed. It tries to strike a balance between public and private ownership. Everything from Vietnam to the US have aspects of market socialism. I think that there are more industries where the US should take ownership, particularly industries that lend themselves to natural monopolies or oligopolies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for the reply. I agree that regulating capitalism is necessary, but I also think the "where it's needed" portion of your thesis is a real sticking point. I would be interested to know what industries you have in mind where the US should take ownership, and in what form. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It'll obviously be industry dependent. A few that I'd see the need. - Railroads - The lines themselves and the operation should be owned by the federal government. Private rail companies should buy access which pays for line expansion and maintenance. The US needs regulations on things like train length and line speeds (none of these super massive trains blocking roadways because they don't fit inside a rail yard). - Medicine - Medicare for all, but honestly I think nationalizing major hospitals and pharmaceuticals would probably be warranted. It's in the national interest to fund a wide breadth of research and medicine production even if that medicine doesn't ultimately turn a profit. But even if we just did insurance, the US is already covering the most expensive pool of individuals with Medicare (old people) expanding it to all citizens wouldn't be that expensive. Reform to medicare would help (particularly removing Part C, that's just a slush fund for insurance companies, but then also expanding and simplifying the other parts). Utilities ownership - Doesn't need to be nationalized, but having municipal or state ran utilities would, IMO, be preferable. The state utilities boards suck and putting in checks for utility companies. They aren't elected and are easy to corrupt. For example, my water utility was recently purchased by a company. In order to cover the loan they took out to purchase the previous water company, they raised rates (fat chance those go down). For telecommunications, I think a British telecom style system would work well. The government owns the lines while various telecommunication companies compete for service. That'd make it easier for more than just 2 companies providing internet service to a given location. Cellular networks practically already work like this, the big 3 own everything and sub-carriers just lease access. It'd be better if the government nationally owned cell service deployment. Especially in terms of spectrum usage. - Food production - I don't really think government ownership is needed here, I think anti-trust and breakups are needed. These markets have consolidated to a huge extent which is really bad for everyone. Having just ~5 different national grocers is a bad thing. Having just a few mills (like general mills) is a bad thing. - Chip fabrication - This should be owned by the government much like TSMC. And like TSMC, the likes of nvidia/intel/amd can buy a fab to do their runs. Fabs are just too crazy expensive and losing the competitive edge here is a security problem. Basically, my view centers mostly around when an industry gets too consolidated. Especially when I think it's something that has critical importance to the general public. I could be open to more of these sorts of actions, it just depends on if an industry can be naturally competitive or not. Like, for example, I think a nationalized shoe manufacturing is a dumb idea as it's already a highly competitive market that could be easily broken up. Hopefully that answers your question. | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | It does, thanks. I'm not sure how much I agree with your premise, but I'll think about it. |
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