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| ▲ | mindslight 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The HN dead dynamic has been increasingly throwing babies out with the bathwater, and logging in (even to a throwaway account) with showdead=yes is the right call these days. But for this particular comment, I assume it was flagged because at this point continuing to cheerlead for the fascists/destructionists with nonsense talking points is just basic flamebait. As GP said, the assertion that only illegal immigrants are being harassed/abducted/disappeared is completely unfounded - the government is not operating with transparency to demonstrate this, nor accountability for the collateral harm that we do know they have caused. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 2 days ago | parent [-] | | This is not basic flamebait. if you have any serious conversation outside of your political bubble this is THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported. I can't there are so many shorts of right wing "influencers" cornering liberals who can't give a suitable reply to this question. so the argument about hearings is important. and killing this discussion took it away from public. this of course is very useful to the maga machine which is so friendly to big tech so I'm not surprised. | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Whether or not someone is a citizen is a complete red herring. Plenty of non citizens are in the US legally. Why even bring that talking point up? | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent [-] | | Their argument is that only non citizens who committed some crime get deported. Which is basically normal in many countries except maybe EU. I for sure know of people who got deported after committing crimes or even just administrative wrongdoings while being on legal visas What you can say US should hold itself to higher standard and how trump does it is absolutely wrong... Then I agree Yoo can also say that right wingers move goalposts by first saying "only illegal migrants get deported" then saying "even legal migrants pending citizenship can get deported if they commit a crime" then "any non citizen can get deported because nothing in constitution prevents it" which happens but it's usually hard to get somebody for moving goalposts in a real life argument. But saying "whether someone is a citizen or not" is irrelevant is wrong because for US citizens is very relevant | | |
| ▲ | estearum a day ago | parent [-] | | > Their argument is that only non citizens who committed some crime get deported This has always been true in the US, and is increasingly not true now. The data is extremely clear on this. > any non citizen can get deported because nothing in constitution prevents it This is only true with an asterisk which makes it not applicable to the current situation. In the US, even non-citizens (even the subset of illegal non-citizens) have due process rights, which the Trump admin is systematically violating. "Whether someone is a citizen or not" is actually completely irrelevant for the question of whether they have due process rights under our Constitution. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent [-] | | Show the data then. Seriously. I couldn't find examples of deports of US citizens OR non citizens who did not commit crime or administrative wrongdoing. > non-citizens have due process rights Yes, so now you said US should hold itself to higher standard. And I already said I agree with it. > "Whether someone is a citizen or not" is actually completely irrelevant for the question of whether they have due process rights under our Constitution. If true then this looks like another great point that is lost into the abyss because the whole thread was killed. which part of constitution? | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The fifth amendment. Everybody is allowed due process. Only a judge or jury can decide whether someone has violated the law. | | | |
| ▲ | estearum 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Almost none of the recent detainees have serious criminal convictions. The vast majority of detainees have no criminal conviction at all (spoiler alert: because you already get fucking deported when you commit a crime in the US if you're here illegally... OBVIOUSLY.) Nearly half don't even have pending criminal charges. https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi... It's hard to know how many don't have administrative violations, but we do know they're routinely arresting people who are literally at the administrative proceedings to manage their immigration status. Such people are almost by definition following the law. We also know the Trump administration has cancelled hundreds of thousands (millions now?) of legal immigration statuses and declared previously legal people to be illegal overnight. Every set of handcuffs and every seat on a plane for a non-criminal is one removed from the alleged hordes of violent illegal criminals who are overrunning our cities. We already saw during the first Trump administration that his "aggressive" immigration posture actually increased the processing time for actually dangerous/violent people because it stuffed the processing queues with all sorts of people who were causing no trouble to begin with. > which part of constitution [gives due process rights to non-citizens] The same part that gives it to citizens: The 5th Amendment. > No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law The writers knew that "no person" was a different scope than "no citizen," because in other parts of the document they identify citizens and non-citizens, where appropriate. In fact it obviously functionally makes no sense to limit due process to citizens, because otherwise an autocrat could eliminate a citizen's due process rights (and all other Constitutional rights) simply be declaring them to be illegal and precluding them from a hearing to determine otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm sorry to be pedantic but your article points out that x% have convictions, xx% have no convictions, and does not take into account who of them are illegal (undocumented). I don't ask for much, is there a specific story of ONE case where somebody was deported (not detained) who is
- US citizen or
- legal document immigrant with no crimes and violations? if you give me that then I will use this next time when arguing with right wing ppl I know. thanks | | |
| ▲ | estearum 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure: Andy Hernandez Romero, who is among hundreds and perhaps thousands of completely rule-following asylum seekers who have been deported without due process in violation of our own Constitution and asylum laws. |
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| ▲ | mindslight 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported (I can't). It might be a valid argument in a dictatorship, but not in the US - rather it's hopeium that completely relies on preconceived assumptions. An assertion that everyone deported/disappeared must be a non-citizen (... because otherwise why would they have been deported?) is bog standard fallacy that the government/computer/bureaucracy] is always correct. The entire foundation of Constitutionally limited government responsible to the People is that it is the government's job to justify its actions. That's the goal of open legal process, professional representation, the incarcerated's communication with the outside world, etc. A strongman wannabe-dictator asserting "trust me" but hiding all of the details, and for what we do know about engaging in wanton criminality, is nowhere near any level of good-faith executing the laws of a Constitutionally-limited government. Personally I'd say people still thinking any of this is about "immigration reform" are being taken for a ride, just as they have been for the past thirty years. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent [-] | | Nope. It is a valid argument in US in the eyes of US citizens who make it. You don't get to just say "it's not a valid argument" and think that will convince people and actually you know it too. That's why you give the rest of the explanation. which will not be seen because the conversation was killed. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight a day ago | parent [-] | | What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. I didn't address the social aspects you brought up, and I really should have. Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite them being trivially debunked. That is a big part of The Problem, right? "Flood the zone with shit" to overwhelm people's attention and get them to succumb to repeated feel-good talking points that confirm their biases. But if people were more generally intellectually honest, then we wouldn't be staring down fascism to begin with. There are also many people arguing against this tripe, but using the lamest arguments themselves, because once again confirming their preconceived biases feels good. When I go to protests, the sheer number of signs preaching to the choir saddens me - propagating the fascists' paradigm wherein the main issue here is illegal immigration is not going to win anyone over! The way I see it, we should be able to disagree on policy and solutions, but yet still reject the fascism together. But back to the comment flagging - when the bulk of political discourse revolves around flamebait, then it's not terribly surprising the popular arguments get flagged on forums that are looking for something more than flame war. FWIW the whole conversation wasn't outright killed, rather it's hidden in a tree you can click to expand (it says [10 more] meaning 10 comments below it to expand). Personally, I usually click those, but I understand having to do so detracts from engagement. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 a day ago | parent [-] | | > What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. it's only not a legitimate argument if you are in a specific bubble. How do I know? Because I talk to people outside of it. Talk to some right-wing conservatives and you'll find out I promise you. > Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite them being trivially debunked. No, they are not trivially debunked. Actually "no hearings" argumetn is trivially debunked by right wingers: "hearings take too long and we have too many immigrants committing crimes". However it's still a good argument to know. And killing this conversation makes sure people don't know it. > confirming their preconceived biases feels good Do you have enough introspection power to ask if you are doing that yourself right here? > when the bulk of political discourse revolves around flamebait This is not flamebait for the reasons I explained | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just because people don't understand how the legal system works, even though it has been explained to them, doesn't mean we should listen to their intentionally ignorant arguments. They won't understand until somebody they know falls to the machine, then they'll say "oh I thought it would only happen to people I don't like." | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | So out there in social media some americans who don't understand how legal system works defeat in arguments other americans who don't understand how legal system works. Do you think all americans on HN are definitely smart and understand now legal system works and if they are on the fence then they are malicious fascists? If yes then sure that post deserved to be flagged. |
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| ▲ | mindslight 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You need to stop sitting on the fence and thinking that the fascists' arguments are being made in good faith. I'd say what's driving the grassroots is closer to pure anger, demanding solutions of "someone do something" for how they've been disenfranchised, for which this specter of "illegal immigrants" are being used as a scapegoat. You're not going to convince them of anything by pointing out that this strawman they just want to beat is entitled to Constitutional rights and due process. It's simply hindbrain tribal crap being stirred up by con man Trump and the fascist media bubble. > Do you have enough introspection power to ask if you are doing that yourself right here? I'm a libertarian who was both-sidesing up through Covid even. I had still thought there was a good chance Trump would come around to actually leading through June of 2020. Nope! I still do occasionally ponder thoughts like - lets say I forget about the great amount of human suffering currently being created, and try on going with the flow and loving big brother - do I see any good economic outcomes from these policies here? And my answer still comes around to settling on no - they are continuing to destroy the core fabric of our country based around individual liberty and self determination, in favor of a strong man dictatorship. Trumpism is sold as some radical reset required to restore freedom, but it's merely the continued destruction of it. >> when the bulk of political discourse revolves around flamebait >This is not flamebait for the reasons I explained You have not explained how it is not flamebait. Being popular does not mean something is not flamebait. If you respond to these right-wing "conservative" (aka fascist, actual conservatives were called RINOs and kicked out of the Party), you get back a flood of more half-baked arguments and you're off to the races, right? That's a flamewar, even if you keep your tempers. The only ways that conversation is going to end is to agree to disagree, the topic gets changed, or in anger and frustration. (fwiw I'd say this dynamic of radical flamebait as common discourse applies to parts of the Democratic party as well) | | |
| ▲ | throwaway290 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | > thinking that the fascists' arguments are being made in good faith. > If you respond to these right-wing "conservative" (aka fascist, actual conservatives were called RINOs and kicked out of the Party), you get back a flood of more half-baked arguments and you're off to the races, right? I argue about it with people I know who are center right. they sometimes make some good points and as non american it's hard to defeat them. maybe their arguments are stupid to you but not so stupid to me. So this is informative to me to know the counter arguments. also, it seems that there is a majority of people who voted right in US, if you believe the last election. just calling then fascists doesn't help convince them. but facts can |
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