It's wild to me that so many skeptical westerners who want to nitpick certain unproven technicalities, when the entire world only gets bits and pieces of the on the ground reality of China's progress, like the original Reuters article which was clearly fed information by insiders.

You should be living in the world of "China has successfully developed EUV and equivalent litho supply chain" and basing your decision making off of that.

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bad_haircut72 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I also cant understand people being in denial about, or claiming other imagined moats or whatever. They're whipping the pants of us right now industrially, if the west has any advantages left its that we speak the truth about stuff even when it hurts, why live in denial.

Also this stuff was figured out and built once before, other than the effort and resources involved (which China has lots of), why wouldn't someone else be able to figure it out again?

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this_user 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The west is still underestimating China. There is a great anecdote, I think it's from the book 'Apple in China', about their engineers visiting a Chinese production plant. Some changes needed to be made to the place. The Apple people estimated that that would take two weeks.

They came back the next day. It was finished, the Chinese had done it overnight.

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wiether 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The west is still underestimating China.

What do you mean by "The West"?

Because in Western Europe, nobody serious is underestimating China, quite the contrary. We know that there's no going back, and quality is no longer a criteria to choose local over imported.

Only bigotted people are still viewing China as a country mass-producing cheap crap.

I think that's the EVs that definitely sealed the deal in lots of people's minds.

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beAbU 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe Tim Cook himself has said Apple is manufacturing in China not because of cheap labour, but because of good engineering.

It's ironic that a lot of western domestic manufacturing takes place using machines that were engineered and manufactured in China.

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mzhaase 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I recommend the HTX Studio YouTube channel. The things that they release on a regular basis would be year long engineering projects on other channels.

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nebula8804 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I often wonder what is it that's driving the Chinese to work themselves to death to get this stuff done? Surely there must be some limit. I guess we can see it in the low birth rates, the youth unemployment, and I guess the desire to just survive because there's just so many people there. But still, I just don't get how Chinese just keep going and going. What is their end goal on a person to person level? Are they just going to keep killing themselves for the rest of their lives? What happened to the lie flat movement?

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5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[deleted]

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Johanx64 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This really isn't that different from South Korea / Japan work culture isn't it?

Atleast as far as hours clocked in at work is concerned, no?

	▲	nebula8804 an hour ago \| parent [-]
		I don't know. You are correct that the Japanese/Korea has this mentality to spend time at work just to spend time but there is a noticeable delta in effective results between those countries and modern China.

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beautiful_zhixu 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

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nebula8804 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>we speak the truth about stuff even when it hurts, why live in denial

Unless you are talking about Israel :P

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zarzavat 10 hours ago | parent [-]

It's more like the genocide in Gaza is the uncommon case where western propaganda was openly rejected by the population, at least by younger people, despite a concerted top-down effort to try to convince people that genocide is actually concordant with western values. Though it did take some time.

It's the propaganda that nobody questions that is most insidious.

	▲	nebula8804 an hour ago \| parent [-]
		We can't dismiss the role TikTok played in breaking the standard media narrative in the west. I grew up following this issue since I am in a group that is on the receiving end of this conflict. I occasionally think about software that has truly transformed the trajectory of humanity. So much software is just disposable or is only useful for a small group of people. But the folks at TikTok should be commended in some ways for the drastic changes their algorithm made to the views of worldwide youth. Was it altruistic or nefarious? I suspect we won't know for sure until its written in the history books but man did it have an impact. Even though TikTok is probably gone now that its been taken over by the same people who used to shape the narrative its impact wont be easily forgotten. How many of us developers get a chance to write software that really changes the direction the world takes?

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scrlk 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oneshotted by refusing to update priors from 1990s-era 'End of History' thinking.

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lyu07282 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> we speak the truth about stuff

Western propaganda works in mysterious ways.

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16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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ajsnigrutin 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A better question here is, would china be doing this, if "the west" wasn't threathening (and implementing) all kinds of sanctions on them, giving them no choice but to go "the bender way", by making their own chips (with blackjack, and hookers!).

	▲	SirHumphrey 6 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yes? The replication of the foreign capability domestically has been a driving force of China's economy for the last 20 - 30 years. No major R&D program in which china is catching up or even exceeding the western capability was started there, even the quite recent AI boom is mostly based on the work of American companies and labs. If anything the constant underestimation of Chinese capabilities caused "the west" to react way to late.

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terminalshort 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is always like that. Most people just don't have the attitude of getting things done, and they can barely believe it is possible when they watch what the people who do accomplish.

	▲	nebula8804 14 hours ago \| parent [-]
		A lot of things require sacrifice beyond reasonable means. I see these books on how Apple, Nvidia, or Tesla developed their innovations, its groups of people that are extremely talented and became that talented due to sacrifices from their families/communities that go and sacrifice everything themselves to achieve amazing goals. Some of that resultant wealth goes to them but most goes to the shareholders/tech bros. Eventually less and less people want to go down this route so we get "people just not having the attitude of getting things done". The real question is will Chinese people go down that same road or will the fact that there is so much cutthroat competition there keep people in line?

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wewxjfq 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's wild that every comment section about China these days must paint the picture of these rabid anti-Chinese Westerners who are saying that China is an eternal backwater, yet one never sees actual comments like this, and how all of Western media is pushing anti-China propaganda, when the submitted article is just a neutral bit.

	▲	fullshark 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It's an overcorrection for years of western arrogance being expressed in the past decade+. I think most people have woken up by now to the reality of Chinese manufacturing dominance and what that implies, at least those in power and journalists.