| ▲ | georgeburdell a day ago |
| The knowledge came from former ASML employees. I wonder if countries will sanction these individuals given the geopolitical implications of their assistance. |
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| ▲ | mk89 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > The team includes recently retired, Chinese-born former ASML engineers and scientists — prime recruitment targets because they possess sensitive technical knowledge but face fewer professional constraints after leaving the company, the people said. > Their recruitment was part of an aggressive drive China launched in 2019 for semiconductor experts working abroad, offering signing bonuses that started at 3 million yuan to 5 million yuan ($420,000 to $700,000) and home-purchase subsidies, according to a review of government policy documents. I guess they won't leave China anyways. So what's to sanction... |
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| ▲ | kccqzy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sanctioning won’t do anything. These former ASML employees know that their professional careers in the western world are finished. I bet they know when they are signing that they are going to stay in China or countries friendly with China for the rest of their lives. |
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| ▲ | integralid 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | >for the rest of their lives You overestimate length of the western outrage. Anyway what's to sanction? Almost no country recognizes Taiwan. Diplomatically they changed one job in China to another | | |
| ▲ | pedroma 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | A good benchmark would be how long the west remains mad at Russia for invading Ukraine. | | |
| ▲ | godelski 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This time or last time? (For those confused: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Russian_annexation_of_Cri...) | |
| ▲ | mywittyname 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Who is "the west" in your eyes? I personally know plenty of people in the USA who are openly cheering for Russia in the conflict. So I don't think we could say that "the west" is mad at Russia. Certain people in western countries are, but plenty are quite happy with Russia and wish them well in their endeavors. | | |
| ▲ | xwindowsorg 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Cheering for the "West" means if West wins then please expect 1 million Iraqis (replace Iraq by any other country) dead just because. |
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| ▲ | conradev 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The team includes recently retired, Chinese-born former ASML engineers and scientists — prime recruitment targets because they possess sensitive technical knowledge but face fewer professional constraints after leaving the company, the people said.
and Once inside, he recognized other former ASML colleagues who were also working under aliases and was instructed to use their fake names at work to maintain secrecy, the person said.
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| ▲ | jokoon 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They were under NDA, probably But the science was probably not I don't think this is classified technology, although asml would like it if they were punished. And even if it's patented, China has been stealing everything with little consequence |
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| ▲ | versteegen 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | One interesting and ironic part of the article is that one of the mentioned optics research groups has been submitting a lot of patents on EUV sources. Are we meant to be mad about it? | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Patent system is an abomination anyway. |
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| ▲ | Quothling 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why would Holland sanction people who switch jobs? Don't get me wrong, I can absolutely see how it might have happened if ASML had been an US company. I'm just not sure how you figure that it would happen in Europe. |
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| ▲ | anonnon 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Unless things have changed much since the days of AQ Khan, that's probably the case. |
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| ▲ | decafninja 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Controversial and possibly politically incorrect take, but the People's Republic of China sends many, many, of its citizens to study at top universities and work at top companies all over the world. I'm sure even at sensitive defense related orgs too. While I am sure that the vast majority of them are just regular people, I'm also pretty sure there are True Believers amongst them whose mission is to go out into the world and enrich themselves with the skills and knowledge to bring back to China and further the CCP's goals. Some of them might even attain citizenship in the country they go to while inwardly retaining full allegiance to the PRC. Heck, I know people from other, friendly/allied countries who obtain US citizenship who, if you pose the hypothetical question "If your former country and the US got into a shooting war, who would you fight for?", they would pick their former country without hestitation. And despite public policy and rhetoric sometimes stating how the PRC is becoming a rival or even existential threat to the Liberal Democratic World Order (TM), the Western democracies don't do anything to secure things. And quite frankly, I don't know if there is anything that could be done, short of getting into... highly controversial territory. Which if the situation were reversed, the CCP would probably not bat an eye to do. |
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| ▲ | rnewme 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In late 2022 our telco soft eng team got purged and everyone who was even friends with people who might be Chinese were removed from the project. That included the original architect and product owner, both Americans but with Chinese roots. So there that! | | |
| ▲ | acheong08 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't like this. Feels like easily become racist. E.g. people from Southeast Asia, Japan, or Korea who might not even speak Chinese but getting fired because they "look Chinese" | | |
| ▲ | decafninja 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t like this either. It falls under what I referred to as “highly controversial” choices. But I also don’t doubt that if the coin was flipped, China would not hesitate at all to fire any non-Chinese person from such sensitive projects, and all without any outcry you would see in the West. | | |
| ▲ | expedition32 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Racism against Chinese fuels Chinese patriotism and nationalism which is weaponised by the CCP. I believe that a democratic China would still want to beat the West and become a superpower. |
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| ▲ | throw4f3245y 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder if there would be more outrage if this was done to those with Israeli connections? Yes, Israel is an ally but they have been known to spy on us and share our secrets with other nations, like China. |
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| ▲ | tokioyoyo 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > knowledge to bring back to China and further the CCP's goals You're forgetting to mention that they're also getting paid a lot of money. Quite a lot of people will sell out, given the right conditions, for that amount of money especially in lower CoL areas. To be honest, I'm sure Western governments and companies could do the same if they wanted to bring in the expertise from China. | |
| ▲ | eastof 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is there any other way to see it than just we are too divided and 50% of our own people just think we are the bad guys? What you describe is so obvious but one political side in the US at least pretends this isn't happening and actively does anything they can to hamper any response to it. I would love to be convinced otherwise because I am also part of the division, I truly don't understand the other side at all. | | |
| ▲ | christophilus 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think there was a time when the other side truly believed globalization and economic progress would turn the CCP into a democratic ally. Maybe both sides believed that for a while. What you see now is just the fragmented and incoherent remains of a failed philosophy that hasn’t yet come up with a coherent replacement, so we’re left adrift with no rational foreign policy from either side (in my opinion). | | |
| ▲ | powerapple 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why is China not an ally to the US other than the fact that it is a growing economy may be too big for US? What happens if US does not want to contain China any more? Are there fundamental issues which will put China and US as enemies? | | |
| ▲ | krapp 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | China is communist and systemically atheist. That's basically it. Americans have always (or at least always since WW2) viewed communism as an existential evil and themselves as chosen by God to eradicate it from the world by any means necessary. |
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| ▲ | mk89 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, they first saw the opportunity of cheap manufacturing. Then they saw the democratic ally. But let's say...at the very bottom of the top 1000 reasons to do what they did. For me many Western politicians don't see past 5-10 years. Short-term China was Heaven (for big corp), so they used all the resources they had to justify what they did. Many called BS on that, but were treated like right wing, populists, old conservatives, naive, fear-mongering, etc. Almost a dejavu. |
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| ▲ | mistercheph 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Controversial take: Democracy and the US are awful at keeping secrets, and are incapable of winning by an information delta, if we followed your strategy we would surely be doomed. Our greatest advantages come when we work in the open, and share knowledge and empower ordinary people and the world with technology. As things stand, we are funneling our brightest minds into creating proprietary (secret) technologies... And it turns out the only people for whom the technology is uncopyable or secret are... American citizens. The "proprietary" technology is trivial to steal, and legal protections don't matter outside of our borders, the legal protections and subsidies afforded to those building proprietary (secret) technologies only deprives Americans of the ability to innovate, while in peer nations like China, individuals and startups are totally free to use and enjoy American technology without any restrictions. | | |
| ▲ | decafninja 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But that only works if China reciprocates, which they show no sign of doing. I’d imagine a Chinese citizen living, studying, or working in the US has access to a lot more advanced knowledge than a US citizen trying to do so in China. Up to this point, the US has been the one with the advanced knowledge. We now face a world where the opposite might become true. But using the previous example, I’d imagine a future hypothetical American going to China to study or work would face a lot more roadblocks to obtaining and extracting any advanced knowledge, especially anything with strategic importance. | | |
| ▲ | mistercheph 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | It doesn't require reciprocation because it is a generalized version of the rebasing problem in software. Over a big round table with cigar smoke in the air it's natural to come to the conclusion that the closed party can always outpace any set of open parties since it can take the public work and extend it with an advance that it keeps a secret. In reality, we observe that open parties tend to win, or at minimum, if they lose, the closed party tends to have an entirely disconnected line of research that rarely incorporates ideas from the open party. In the rebasing metaphor, the reason for this is the free coordination an open party gets with other open parties. The closed party never gets to insert its advance into the shared state-of-the-art, so it loses all of the free maintenance of coordination, and it has to choose between paying the maintenance cost of integrating its secret advance with the public SOTA, dropping the secret advance and going back to parity with the public SOTA, or disconnecting from the public SOTA and going all hands in on its own ideas. The maintenance burden of integrating your ideas with the constantly moving SOTA may sound trivial but in practice it is usually prohibitively expensive if there are a lot of parties collaborating on the public SOTA and doesn't leave you with much time/budget to find new secret advances. Right now in the US, we have all of the disadvantages of the open model: the closed parties of the world can cheaply take ideas they like from Meta, Google, OpenAI and mix them with private advances, and all of the disadvantages of the closed model: our domestic tech industry keeps all of its technology a secret from other domestic competitors, and gets none of the coordination benefits of open research / technology, independents and startups are not only unable to access information about the SOTA, but they are actively attacked by the existing monopoly players with any means available when they approach it independently, including using their access to massive capital to drain the talent pool, or being bought outright. And, as we are all too familiar with, the entrenched players don't even care that much about whether or not they can even use the talent efficiently, denying it to competitors is worth more. | | |
| ▲ | anonnon 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | > In reality, we observe that open parties tend to win, or at minimum, if they lose, the closed party tends to have an entirely disconnected line of research that rarely incorporates ideas from the open party An obvious counter-example to this is the NSA/GCHQ and cryptography. They've repeatedly shown that they're a good 5-15 years ahead of everyone else. | | |
| ▲ | ipdashc an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Is this still true? I feel like I haven't heard of any crazy cryptography revelations for a while now. My assumption was that cryptography was a bit of a special case because it was only government/defense entities putting significant work into it, up until the Internet/digital telecommunications became prominent enough that there was great individual and private-sector demand for crypto. (Plus the whole mess with it being export-controlled, obviously) | |
| ▲ | mistercheph 5 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Aside from doubts about whether or not this is actually the case the pertinent question that comes from my point is: If cryptography researchers were keeping their results secret to within their institution / research circle, instead of sharing with academic community / public, would that advantage or disadvantage the NSA relative to the researchers? I think the answer is obvious, and it's a pretty excellent analogy for the US-China situation. |
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| ▲ | eastof 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We haven't always been awful at keeping secrets, see the actual Manhattan Project. I like the optimism of your proposal, but how would those US companies continue the same level of R&D investment without those extra profits? If the government just directly invests, then you've just become the enemy. | | |
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| ▲ | culi 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It seems most of those ASML employees were already Chinese engineers. I doubt they would care if they got caught and had their careers restricted to China |
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| ▲ | maxglute 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well real question is how much would that limit PRC talent from working abroad. PRC will be producing plurality of STEM / high skilled talent for decades. They're going to be the only country with project intergrated circuit talent glut in next 10 years, every other semi power projected to have 100,000s shortage. No PRC talent, and you cap western semi talent pool. Ultimately a lot western innovation run on brain drained PRC talent. There is bamboo ceiling in western tech for east asians, specifically to restrict reverse knowledge transfer. Side effect is once PRC talent hits this ceiling they know big title and fat paychecks and upward mobility is back home, where frankly QoL is off the charts. Ultimately PRC wealthy enough to reverse brain drain aka brain recirculation and PRC talent aren't retarded enough to limit their career aspirations because west decides to cap their career trajectory and try to lock their future behind noncompetes, especially in cold war vs their birth country. Worse, PRC wealthy enough even if there's no bamboo ceiling they can afford to reverse brain drain top 1%, hence current equilibirum. West needs PRC talent, west cannot afford PRC talent to climb too high, PRC can afford to take them off west's hands. Until west figures out another source of talent, they're stuck in this talent trap. And IMO India ain't it, they don't have the integrated industrial chains and academic structure to produce same kind industrial ready workers yet. |
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| ▲ | fspeech 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your point is right on. And additionally, why would an average Indian refuse the pay package to work in China? The top r&d guy at SMIC is from Taiwan after all. Liang got both Samsung and SMIC into the advanced nodes. |
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| ▲ | filloooo 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Handing out sanctions without at least a plausible legal cover, sounds like a recipe for disaster that would come back to bite. I wonder what could be used here, non-compete? IP infringement? Or doing it "for all mankind"? As for knowledge, the YouTube channel Branch Education explained EUV lithography in great detail, sponsored by ASML itself. My impression is that the knowledge is not that secretive, the precision required at every step is the key. |
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| ▲ | kccqzy 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah it reminds me of the Smyth report, published in August 1945 about atomic bombs, commissioned by the director of the real Manhattan Project. It’s fine to reveal knowledge in detail, if it doesn’t reveal anything related to constructing the apparatuses (the chemistry and the metallurgy) needed. | | |
| ▲ | cryptonector 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | The press release following the bombing of Hiroshima specifically stated which method of refining Uranium was used. The U.S. spent a great deal of time, effort, and money on researching and testing four different enrichment systems. Just that one detail saved the Soviets 3/4s of a sizeable chunk of the A-bomb effort. Sometimes you don't need to leak much detail to give away a great deal. | | |
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