| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago |
| > as they are both in the advertisement business Apple isn't. Just sayin'. They are trying to do it, but they aren't really anywhere near the scale of Google and Facebook. They make money (lots of money) by selling high-margin hardware, and, to some extent, digital media, on that hardware. Currently, Apple is genuinely serious about preserving user privacy. I realize that can change, in the future, but it's the way it is, now. I get the feeling that a lot of folks on HN are having difficulty understanding businesses that make a profit by doing stuff other than harvesting and selling PiD, but that's not what has made Apple a 4 trillion-dollar company. They make that money the old-fashioned way; but with a modern twist. That said, this situation is unforgivable, and I hope that Apple leads by example, by preventing this all-too-common type of dumpster fire from happening in the future. |
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| ▲ | rchaud 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Apple's ad business is estimated to be at $6.5 billion annually as of 2024[0]. Since then, they've decided to bring ads to Apple Maps. And of course there was the infamous ad for some movie on Apple TV injected into Apple Wallet earlier this year. Just because they're not Google's size doesn't mean they don't have people making product decisions that will eventually sacrifice privacy for profits. [0] https://digiday.com/marketing/when-it-comes-to-ads-apple-isn... |
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| ▲ | bitpush 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It hurts my brain that people still parrot the fact that "Apple doesnt do ads". As you rightly point out, Ads for Apple is a multi-billion dollar business, bigger than many other ad networks, and ad exchanges. The reality distortion field is strong, even with some HNers. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not that. Be as insulting as you wish, but this conversation shows that a significant number of folks simply can't understand any way to make money, except by harvesting and selling PiD. Making and selling hardware is difficult. Really difficult, but some companies have been doing it successfully, throughout recorded history. It's really strange to see it being dismissed as "impossible," nowadays. | | |
| ▲ | bitpush 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Here are the facts - Apple makes tons (read: billions of dollars) from ads. Hence, Apple is in the business of ads, have sales people working with advertisers to make targeting, personalization work. I take no side in "ads are bad" argument, but you have to accept that Apple is in the ads business, whether you like ads or not. |
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| ▲ | Nextgrid 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Apple became infected with the same thirst for "engagement" as any advertising-driven company. That's why even first-party apps like Maps or Music now waste your time with bullshit notifications. Same for every OS update trying to con you into enabling Apple "Intelligence". Whether the advertising is ultimately successful does not matter to those people, what matters is if they can convince the person paying them (the manager paying their salary, the ad agency, etc) that they are effective. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Apple makes money on hardware and a 30% tax on developers. They might have some goodwill but are not making any money on privacy. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They only get 2.5% of their revenue from app store transactions. | | |
| ▲ | Gareth321 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't think this is correct. Analysts believe Apple made more than $27.39 billion in commissions globally last year (https://techcrunch.com/2025/05/08/appfigures-apple-made-over...). That's around 7% of global revenue, and we should expect this ratio to be higher this year and next. | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 4 days ago | parent [-] | | My search of 2024 numbers stated. $10bn from App Store out of approx $400bn revenue. Which seem to be what is stated in the first tables in that link. I’m not sure who is right, Apple or these analysts, but either way: 2.5% or 7%, that revenue source isn’t large enough to be a corrupting incentive on Apple’s behavior. Maximizing digital service revenue at the cost of user trust which drives their high margin hardware sales would be killing the golden goose. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yup. But not on advertising. I wasn't defending Apple. I was merely pointing out that one of these, is not like the other. Like I said, it seems that we have a hard time understanding business models other than "Harvest and sell data." Posts like the GP, seem to reinforce this appearance. Upton Sinclair is known for a quote, referencing this kind of thing. | | |
| ▲ | oidar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There are ways to abuse advertising other than harvesting and selling user data - which is a big one. Which apple has already done (https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-france-ads-fine-illegal-dat...)For example, the app store places unadvertised apps further down the list on searches or doesn't even show them at all. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Still a different thing. Hating on Apple is quite popular amongst tecchies. I understand. I've probably been more pissed off at Apple, than many folks, here. But it does bother me, that people don't seem to understand the classic business model of making things, selling things, and supporting things. That's thousands of years old, and still very much relevant. Quite a few folks, here, do that. I spent most of my career, at companies that did it. | | |
| ▲ | oidar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't hate apple; I only use apple computers and phones. They are mostly better than any other alternative. But you have to concede that being in the advertising business at any level doesn't do them any favors re: privacy commitments. I only criticize because I want to keep what's good from becoming bad. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Fair point. But they are nowhere near the scale of other companies. I feel as if Silicon Valley has really forgotten its hardware roots, though, and that's sad. Making things is really difficult, and extremely risky. Playing with data is really easy, and quite profitable. |
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| ▲ | benoau 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A full 20% of their profit comes directly from Google Ads, then there's their own ads strewn throughout apps and the App Store on top so their total profit from ads is probably close to a quarter of all their profit. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | They still aren't really in the advertising business, though. Google does the advertising, and 20% seems like a pretty big number. They make, sell, and support physical devices. That's what's called "classic manufacturing." | | |
| ▲ | benoau 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody would say they aren't in the PC, tablet or audio business, yet they make more off ads than they do off Macs, iPads, headphones, speakers... everything but iPhone. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm skeptical of that. I think I'd need to see some hard data on it. I spent most of my career in the hardware business. It's really odd to see so many folks unable to understand business models that make money, besides "sell data." It really seems as if folks can't grok that companies that make money, can do so without necessarily selling data. | | |
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| ▲ | isodev 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Apple has created an entire programming language (Swift) as part of their "marketing toolbox". > genuinely serious about preserving user privacy Nope, not anymore. That ship has sailed and more revenue is to be made by harvesting user data |
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| ▲ | astrange 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Harvesting user data" doesn't make money. The reason people think this is that on HN people have main character syndrome that makes them think their personal data is interesting, plus an assumption that making money is evil therefore anything you can think of that is evil would make money. (Google and Facebook don't make money by "harvesting" or "selling" user data, they make webpages you spend a lot of time on then put ads on them.) | | |
| ▲ | array_key_first 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Pretty much nobody's personal info is valuable by itself, but it's EXTREMELY valuable in aggregate, because it lets you target advertisement. Like, so valuable it's on the order of tens of billions. | | |
| ▲ | isodev 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Indeed, and the entire concept of smarter Siri, chatGPT integration as well as apple's ever-increasing Ad surfaces ... is powered by aggegading more and more usage analytics from users. There are so many that come on by default when you install macOS/iOS. | | |
| ▲ | astrange 3 days ago | parent [-] | | No, you don't need usage analytics for Siri. (You need it for music to fulfill your contracts with the artists though.) |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, I think the reason people on HN think this is because Apple, Google and Microsoft have all been caught harvesting user data: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-... | | |
| ▲ | astrange 4 days ago | parent [-] | | That is a government using a court order to get access to something? |
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| ▲ | snowwrestler 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The data that Google and Meta harvest are your interactions on other websites and apps that are loading a Google or Meta JavaScript, or have a back-end data integration with them. I don’t know if Apple has client-side ad scripts like those, but in decades of building websites I’ve never been asked to implement one. | |
| ▲ | Eisenstein 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If it isn't worth anything then why do they want it? |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > That ship has sailed and more revenue is to be made by harvesting user data That does seem to call for supporting evidence. I write Apple apps, and they make it very difficult to access user data. I would need to know how they get it, and how they make money from it. | | |
| ▲ | Lammy 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Put an iPhone on your Wi-Fi and log how often it calls out to some Apple web service. You might be shocked, or does it make it okay when Apple themselves are the ones it's impossible to have privacy from? | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Huh? We started off talking about Apple isn't in the advertising business, and now we're at standard telemetry. Upton Sinclair really knew what he was talking about. |
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