| ▲ | jrjeksjd8d 6 days ago |
| To be more charitable to TFA, machine translation is a field where there aren't great alternatives and the downside is pretty limited. If something is in another language you don't read it at all. You can translate a bunch of documents and benchmark the result and demonstrate that the model doesn't completely change simple sentences. Another related area is OCR - there are sometimes mistakes, but it's tractable to create a model and verify it's mostly correct. LLMs being applied to everything under the sun feels like we're solving problems that have other solutions, and the answers aren't necessarily correct or accurate. I don't need a dubiously accurate summary of an article in English, I can read and comprehend it just fine. The downside is real and the utility is limited. |
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| ▲ | schoen 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| There's an older tradition of rule-based machine translation. In these methods, someone really does understand exactly what the program does, in a detailed way; it's designed like other programs, according to someone's explicit understanding. There's still active research in this field; I have a friend who's very deep into it. The trouble is that statistical MT (the things that became neural net MT) started achieving better quality metrics than rule-based MT sometime around 2008 or 2010 (if I remember correctly), and the distance between them has widened since then. Rule-based systems have gotten a little better each year, while statistical systems have gotten a lot better each year, and are also now receiving correspondingly much more investment. The statistical systems are especially good at using context to disambiguate linguistic ambiguities. When a word has multiple meanings, human beings guess which one is relevant from overall context (merging evidence upwards and downwards from multiple layers within the language understanding process!). Statistical MT systems seem to do something somewhat similar. Much as human beings don't even perceive how we knew which meaning was relevant (but we usually guessed the right one without even thinking about it), these systems usually also guess the right one using highly contextual evidence. Linguistic example sentences like "time flies like an arrow" (my linguistics professor suggested "I can't wait for her to take me here") are formally susceptible of many different interpretations, each of which can be considered correct, but when we see or hear such sentences within a larger context, we somehow tend to know which interpretation is most relevant and so most plausible. We might never be able to replicate some of that with consciously-engineered rulesets! |
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| ▲ | GMoromisato 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is the bitter lesson.[1] I too used to think that rule-based AI would be better than statistical, Markov chain parrots, but here we are. Though I still think/hope that some hybrid system of rule-based logic + LLMs will end up being the winner eventually. ---------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_lesson | | |
| ▲ | beepbooptheory 5 days ago | parent [-] | | These days its pretty much the "sweet" lesson for everyone but Sutton and his peers it seems. | | |
| ▲ | zavec 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's bitter for me because I like looking at how things work under the hood and that's much less satisfying when it's "a bunch of stats and linear algebra that just happens to work" | | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior 5 days ago | parent [-] | | So you prefer "a bunch of electrons, field effects, and clocks than just happen to work"? | | |
| ▲ | schoen 5 days ago | parent [-] | | If you're building on a computer language, you can say you understand the computer's abstract machine, even though you don't know how we ever managed to make a physical device to instantiate it! |
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| ▲ | skylurk 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep, some domains have no hard rules at all. Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's completely possible to write a parser that outputs every possible parse of "time flies like an arrow", and then try interpreting each one and discard ones that don't make sense according to some downstream rules (unknown noun phrase: "time fly"). I did this for a text adventure parser, but it didn't work well because there are exponentially ways to group the words in a sentence like "put the ball on the bucket on the chair on the table on the floor" | | |
| ▲ | skylurk 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I would argue that particular sentence only exists to convey the bamboozled feeling you get when you reach the end of it, so only sentient parsers can parse it properly. |
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| ▲ | FeepingCreature 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > There's an older tradition of rule-based machine translation. In these methods, someone really does understand exactly what the program does, in a detailed way I would softly disagree with this. Technically, we also understand exactly what a LLM does, we can analyze every instruction that is executed. Nothing is hidden from us. We don't always know what the outcome will be; but, we also don't always know what the outcome will be in rule-based models, if we make the chain of logic too deep to reliably predict. There is a difference, but it is on a spectrum. In other words, explicit code may help but it does not guarantee understanding, because nothing does and nothing can. | | |
| ▲ | schoen 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The grammars in rule-based MT are normally fully conceptually understood by the people who wrote them. That's a good start for human understanding. You could say they don't understand why a human language evolved some feature but they fully understand the details of that feature in human conceptual terms. I agree in principle the statistical parts of statistical MT are not secret and that computer code in high-level languages isn't guaranteed to be comprehensible to a human reader. Or in general, binary code isn't guaranteed to be incomprehensible and source code isn't guaranteed to be comprehensible. But for MT, the hand-written grammars and rules are at least comprehended by their authors at the time they're initially constructed. | | |
| ▲ | FeepingCreature 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, I agree with that, but that's a property of hand-writing more than rule-based systems. For instance, you could probably translate a 6B LLM into an extremely big rule system, but doing so would not help you understand how the LLM worked. |
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| ▲ | pona-a 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you know what is the SOTA rule-based MT? I used to be deep into symbolics but couldn't find much in the way of contemporary rule based NLP. | | |
| ▲ | schoen 4 days ago | parent [-] | | My friend is working on Grammatical Framework, which has a Resource Grammar library of pre-written natural language grammars, at least for portions of them. The GF research community continues to add new ones over time, based on implementing portions of written reference grammars, or sometimes by native speakers based on their own native speaker intuitions. I'm not sure if there are larger grammar libraries elsewhere. There could be companies that made much better rule-based MT but kept the details as trade secrets. For example, I think Google Translate was rule-based for "a long time" (I don't remember until what year, although it was pretty apparent to users and researchers when it switched, and indeed I think some Google researchers even spoke publicly about it). They had made a lot of investment (very far beyond something like a GF resource grammar) but I don't think they ever published any of that underlying work even when they discontinued that version of the product. So basically there may be this gap where academic stuff is advancing slowly and yet now represents the majority of examples in the field because companies are so unlikely to have ongoing rule-based projects as part of projects. The available state of the art you can actually interact with may have gone backwards in recent years as a result! nimi sina li pona tawa mi. |
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| ▲ | ACCount37 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| LLMs are great because of exactly that: they solve things that have no other solutions. (And also things that have other solutions, but where "find and apply that other solution" has way more overhead than "just ask an LLM".) There is no deterministic way to "summarize this research paper, then evaluate whether the findings are relevant and significant for this thing I'm doing right now", or "crawl this poorly documented codebase, tell me what this module does". And the alternative is sinking your own time in it - while you could be doing something more important or more fun. |
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| ▲ | onion2k 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| and demonstrate that the model doesn't completely change simple sentences A nefarious model would work that way though. The owner wouldn't want it to be obvious. It'd only change the meaning of some sentences some of the time, but enough to nudge the user's understanding of the translated text to something that the model owner wants. For example, imagine a model that detects the sentiment of text about Russian military action, and automatically translates it to something a more positive if it's especially negative, but only 20% of the time (maybe ramping up as the model ages). A user wouldn't know, and a someone testing the model for accuracy might assume it's just a poor translation. If such a model became popular it could easily shift the perception of the public a few percent in the owner's preferred direction. That'd be plenty to change world politics. Likewise for a model translating contracts, or laws, or anything else where the language is complex and requires knowledge of both the language and the domain. Imagine a Chinese model that detects someone trying to translate a contract from Chinese to English, and deliberately modifies any clause about data privacy to change it to be more acceptable. That might be paranoia on my part, but it's entirely possible on a technical level. |
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| ▲ | v3xro 5 days ago | parent [-] | | That's not a technical problem though is it? I don't see legal scenarios where unverified machine translation is acceptable - you need to get a certified translator to sign off on any translations and I also don't see how changing that would be a good thing. | | |
| ▲ | schoen 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I was briefly considering trying to become a professional translator, and I partly didn't pursue it because of the huge use of MT. I predict demand for human translators will continue to fall quickly unless there are some very high-profile incidents related to MT errors (and humans' liability for relying on them?). Correspondingly the supply of human translators may also fall as it appears like a less credible career option. | |
| ▲ | GTP 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the point here is that, while such a translation wouldn't be admissible in court, many of us already used machine translation to read some legal agreement in a language we don't know. | | |
| ▲ | fao_ 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > many of us already used machine translation to read some legal agreement in a language we don't know. Have we? Most of us? Really? When? | | |
| ▲ | int_19h 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Most people don't have to deal with documents in foreign languages in the first place. But for those that do, yes, machine translation use is widespread if only as a first pass. | |
| ▲ | GTP 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I know I did for rent contracts and know other people that did the same. And I said many, not most. |
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