| ▲ | jack_tripper 16 hours ago |
| Sign of a rich and very developed country. A lot of buildings in Austrian cities are still heated by burning oil or wood and the whole city smells like a bonfire. Probably gonna have my lifespan shortened by at least a decade from all that fossil fuel pollution, but at least we banned that dirty nuclear from killing us. |
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| ▲ | wkat4242 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Yes heat pumps are expensive and you need different radiators and more insulation than with traditional gas central heating. That's why it's an issue in Holland too. Not many people have the investment for all that. It's mainly worth it when you have solar panels but that requires another big investment. I'm lucky to live in Spain where it's not that cold so I just have one little plug in radiator I use a few months a year lol. |
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| ▲ | wolvesechoes 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > more insulation Nothing to do with a heat source. | |
| ▲ | hexbin010 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ditto UK. Gas is relatively cheap, and a replacement boiler is £1,500 to £3,000 and will last ~10 years and there'll be no doubt about whether it can sufficiently heat the home or produce enough hot water etc . Lucky you living in Spain though lol | | |
| ▲ | cnewey 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I was recently in a situation where I had to replace my oil-fired heating system’s oil tank (it wasn’t double skinned and no longer safe). It was £2500 to replace the oil tank, or I could opt for £2250 to install a heat pump with the government grant. This included all plumbing, electrical work, installation, and 6 new radiators all over my house. Honestly to me it seemed like a no-brainer. It’s a tad more expensive to run, but it works really quite well and is a lot less invasive than a big smelly tank of kerosene. I gained another 90cm of width in my garden, it’s actually quieter than the oil boiler, and it doesn’t stink in the summer- win win. | | |
| ▲ | OptionOfT 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did you add extra insulation to your house (or was it already more modern?). Otherwise the heatpump just can't catch up. And currently I have the opposite problem. The house is too well insulated for the heater (or the heater is too powerful). The heater only runs for a couple of minutes and huts off. | | |
| ▲ | cnewey 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hah, no my house was built in the 1750s or something like that - single glazing on the front and with fairly minimal insulation, plus it has no cavity wall (a mixture of wattle and daub and brick). It is a mid-terrace though so I benefit from neighbours being either side. There have been a few cold snaps here where the weather has been down to -2 some days, but it’s been fine. I had a couple of minor installation issues (eg 3 way valve set incorrectly) but once those were fixed my house hasn’t dropped below 19C. |
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| ▲ | wkat4242 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, it's just a lot of money for a lot of people. Norway is really a different kind of rich compared to the rest of europe, they have tons of oil rights all over the world (and as such they still contribute a lot to global warming even though they have a lot of money for 'green' tech at home). PS yeah Spain is good for heating but not for AC though (which I don't have, sadly). But I do enjoy life here a lot more even though I would make much more money in Holland. | | |
| ▲ | OptionOfT 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | As someone who moved from Belgium to Phoenix, I agree. I prefer how dry heat over cold, windy & humid. |
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| ▲ | supersparrow 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A boiler should actually be lasting more like 20 years. I recently replaced my 20 year old one purely because if anything went wrong, it’d become an expensive/long job to fix as parts were hard to find, otherwise it was still running perfectly at its manufacture specified efficiency. Running them for 20 years isn’t uncommon. I had a quote for a heat pump - £20k, plus the cost to replace 13 radiators, plus cost to replace pipework to support heat pump rads. Pretty sure the government ‘incentive’ was £3k at the time. Doesn’t come remotely close! | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I managed £15k minus £7k of Scottish government incentives, and I managed to avoid replacing all my radiators by .. getting a "hybrid" system which also includes a boiler for HW :/ Far from ideal solution, but it is mostly green, somewhat offset by the solar panels, and actually more comfortable than the old system because of the more even heating. Set to 20C and forget about it for the season. I'm hoping that it will last until the actual gas phaseout when a solution compatible with 8mm piping will exist. This is why they need to be mandated on new houses, because it's so much better than trying to retrofit it. | | |
| ▲ | hexbin010 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | £15k included the solar? | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sadly no, that was a £5k => 3.8kW installation ten years previously. That has long since paid for itself in feed in tariffs. |
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| ▲ | hexbin010 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Was your old boiler a non-combi? Modern condensing combis I think are designed to be more complex and not last as long. I'm not sure all the complexity and fancy modulation etc is really worth it myself. I'd rather have a boiler that lasts 20 years and that any half-competent gas engineer can fix with a spanner and some spare parts. £20k, jesus! | | |
| ▲ | zzbn00 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Condensing boilers became mandatory in UK just over 20 years ago | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Whatever about a combi, you probably don't want a non-condensing boiler these days, not with gas the price that it is. |
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| ▲ | mrmlz 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | UK houses are really interesting.. Single-glass windows, poor insulation etc. And plumbing on the OUTSIDE(!) :) Are the boilers typically connected to water-radiators?.. I assume so based on the word "boiler". There are heatpumps that are used to heat water so it would be a slot in replacement.. | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not many people left with single glazing unless they've been trapped by historic building rules. "Outdoor plumbing" is not a thing. The pump is a drop in replacement unless you have 8mm "microbore" piping, at which point the lower temperature times restricted flow rate becomes a problem in terms of getting enough heat through. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My parents' house in Bath is not "trapped by historic building rules" but there is no way in hell they are ever going to replace 3-4 stories of single pane glass double hungs ... and that house still has the sewage stacks on the outside of the house, as do almost all homes in Bath and environs. | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not sure about the UK. I've seen a lot of outdoor plumbing in Ireland. I lived in a place that had that. They were literally running on the outside. Our maintenance guy said they did that to make maintenance easier, but it also makes wear & tear a lot easier obiously (not to mention frost). And chipboard floors that would crack with heavy furniture. It was terrible quality. These houses were built in the mid 80s. And a dirty tank of water in the attic to act as a "in-house water tower" because only one tap may be connected directly to the mains. Really archaic. | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | By 'outdoor plumbing' they probably mean pipes running up the outside of buildings (not, like, outhouses). This is somewhat common for waste pipes. |
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| ▲ | asplake 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Brit here. Your first pragraph describes older housing stock, not anything built in decades. Not that the quality of our quality of our stock couldn't be improved, or that our (very real) energy standards for new builds couldn't be stricter, but things aren't quite as grim everywhere as the picture you paint. | |
| ▲ | supersparrow 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’ve lived in the UK for 35 years and lived in various properties built in every decade from 70s-10s. Some much older and less loved ones did have single pane windows but have never seen plumbing on the outside. Maybe on much older houses? Certainly not on anything remotely new. A lot of new builds here have solar, heat pumps and insulation has been excellent for at least 20 years. | | |
| ▲ | pm215 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | You do relatively commonly see wastewater piping on the outside of a house in the UK, especially older stock (soil stack from the toilet, waste pipe from sink or bath running into it). This is fine in the UK climate where a normally empty pipe doesn't need insulation. I hear that it won't work in places that get extreme low winter temperatures, but the UK doesn't have winters that cold. You don't see them on new builds, I think, probably because the pipe going from inside to outside would reduce insulation effectiveness. | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah it makes sense for buildings where plumbing was retrofitted. Otherwise people try to retrofit narrow drain pipes in the walls which are prone to clogging or give you poor flushing performance. Or outside big enough pipes outside interior walls where you get to hear every flush/shower unless you build a box around that. Easier to just run it outside if you can configure your bathrooms that way. |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Air-to-Air heat pumps can be quite affordable. Or even cheap if you find no name deals. There is install, but even that is not really that significant. This is at least in Nordics. |
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| ▲ | MisterTea 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is install, but even that is not really that significant. The install itself isn't that hard they come pre-charged with refrigerant. I have installed a few of the air-to air myself and had no issues. All you need is a vacuum pump and proper refrigerant manifold or adapters. Vacuum out the lines for at least an hour to draw out all the air and moisture, close valve and let sit for an hour, if the gauge shows no leak, open the heat pump zone valves and you're in business. A friend did it and had all the refrigerant leak out after a year but he realized the flared end that came from factory was malformed so he cut and re-flared the end, vacuumed out the system, left it overnight, saw no leak, and had an AC tech do the charge. Was solid after that. A from zero charge requires some knowledge of the systems capacity and a scale to weigh the charge so he hired someone to do it. | | |
| ▲ | sowbug 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is now an even easier way than vacuuming. Instead of pulling the unwanted air and moisture from the lines, you can push it out with another gas, which itself can somehow coexist with the refrigerant. I haven't tried it because I already have the pump and gauges, but if I were installing my first mini split, I'd consider it. Example: https://www.highseer.com/products/pioneer-kwik-e-vac | | |
| ▲ | oceanplexian 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's so ridiculously easy to vacuum and charge a heat pump it's kind of unnecessary. I think I spent $200 in parts on Amazon and have done 4 heat pumps now. It's a vacuum pump, a scale, and a digital manifold/guage. Punch the numbers for subcool/superheat into a calculator and use the temp probes on the lines where they connect to the condenser and you can even skip the scale. | |
| ▲ | MisterTea 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My only caution is this method does not let you check if the lines are leak tight. |
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| ▲ | jack_tripper 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Probably not for entire apartment buildings since most of them run on oil or gas burning here. I only saw heat pumps on apartment buildings built after 2020 or the single family homes in the affluent areas. | | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, here they are used for AC in apartments. Unless for some weird reason they are electric heating... And even then for some reason we do not like them visible so they need to be hidden on balconies and like. | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's another problem in Holland too. The government mandates people moving to heat pumps for new houses (and existing ones in the longer term) because they don't want Russian gas dependencies and they want to close the national gas fields (they cause earthquakes). But then neighbours start complaining about the look of the outdoor units and causing hassle with court orders etc. Really if they want people to move they should make it easy and cheap, so invalidate cosmetic complaints automatically. |
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| ▲ | stephen_g 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Longer term this shouldn’t be the case though - a fridge is just a heat pump, and an air-to-air or air-to-water heat pumps aren’t that much more complicated, nor should they be any less reliable. It’s something that will become more of a commodity and eventually won’t be any more sign of wealth than owning a fridge. I mean, we can see it already in air-to-air systems - I’ve had mini-splits supplied and installed here in Australia for something like 20% of the cost I’ve heard quoted for equally sized units in the US, for example - just because basically every electrician has a license to install them here because they are so incredibly common (for cooling even more than heating, but they can basically all so both here). Air-to-water I expect will be the same in cold climates - in 15 years basically any plumber will be able to do it and they’ll be far cheaper than today. |
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| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > air-to-water heat pumps these are slightly odd, however: they either need an external air intake set up, or they require that the water (tank/heater) be located in a space that you don't mind being cooled down (often quite significantly) AND that isn't thermally connected to the space you're heating via other means. still great technology, but deployment can be a little more challenging that space heating/cooling. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | They are weird in the way that their utility varies. IIRC Dave Jones of EEVBlog fame has shown a air-to-water heat exchanger that he has at his home. It's outside. And the climate in Sydney is generally warm(ish), so it makes perfect sense there. I can also see them being useful in parts of the American South where big garages being common and the weather gets hot: Take some of the heat from the garage and convert it into hot water for showering and cleaning. Win-win. But they're not so hot, per se, in my part of Ohio, where unfinished basements are commonly used as utility spaces. My own basement, for instance: As unfinished basements go, it's pretty good. It's not a bad place to hang out and work on stuff any time of year. But it's a big space, and it's cold down there in the winter because I don't want to pay to warm it up. Despite being cold, that's really the most-suitable place for a conventional water heater for this house -- and it's where the house was designed to have it, too. But if I were to "upgrade" to a heat-exchanger water heater, then as a practical matter I'd be making my already-cold basement even colder. If it ever got cold-enough down there to make supplemental heat desirable (or worse: necessary), then it'd be an absolute loss: Burn energy over here in one place in the basement to try to keep it warm, and use that energy down the way a bit to concentrate into a tank full of hot water, while the basement stays cold. Even if it I had a nice modern mini-split down there to provide that supplemental heat: That would mean having air-to-water heat exchanger that is backed up by an air-to-air heat exchanger that is already at the edge of its efficiency curve because it's cold outside. The combination would be reprehensibly dumb: A complicated Rube Goldberg system that costs more to buy, more to maintain, and more to run than approximately anything else would. (I might even be better off just burning my dollars directly.) (The smarter move for my own home, in Ohio, would probably be a gas-fired tankless water heater, since they leak almost no heat while not being used.) | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I can also see them being useful in parts of the American South where big garages being common and the weather gets hot: Take some of the heat from the garage and convert it into hot water for showering and cleaning. Win-win. Uhhh, better to put the unit inside the home where it provides a bit of a/c. Double win if you cool the compressor with incoming water. Not in the south myself, but with trad water heaters, I find it dumb that I’m heating incoming 5-10C municipal water in summer time when I could have a tempering tank/loop letting the interior air warm it up (and getting a tad of “free” AC) to 20-25C first before paying to apply heat to it. Would improve “capacity” of the heater too. Even in winter time, my home heating is more efficient than most water heaters (even if they’re both gas, water heaters are typically non-condensing, and actively pump out warmed interior air for combustion), so it makes sense all year round. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure. It's better to start with an excellent home design that most-effectively uses every iota of modern tech to optimize efficiency. And sure, even more efficiency can be eeked out if one is willing to layer on their own productive infrastructure hacks. But not everybody has those opportunities. Not every home has an existing conditioned space within which to put a water heater. Not every person is equipped (mentally or physically) to engineer and use tempering loops and/or water-cooling compressor motors. As a practical matter: In a warm-climate home that already has a water heater in the garage (which is very common in the American south, from my limited direct observation), replacing a traditional water heater with one that uses a heat pump can make a lot of sense. This replacement is something that any person and a friend with minimal plumbing and electrical experience can accomplish on their own in one afternoon, without incurring the expense and inconvenience of relocating their water heater somewhere else. There will be no drywall dust, and no paint. It's a natural fit. --- And don't take any of this the wrong way. You've got some great ideas there. But not all environments are the same. During the warmer months in my own city, I've measured incoming water at 76F/24C -- warmer than the house, and also warmer than the basement where the plumbing lives. A tempering loop may make sense for you in your environment, but it would be the opposite of useful in my environment: "Oh neat! A thing that makes my home harder to cool in the summer!" (Unusual? Perhaps. But it's my reality anyway. I've never run out of hot water in this city during the summer. Not even close. But things do change in the winter -- maybe I'll measure the input temperature again when I get home tonight.) It's fun to think about niche concepts that don't have broad-scale adoption. And sometimes, it makes sense to set forth and make them a reality. But it's always important to remember that there's often very real reasons for them to remain niche concepts that aren't broadly utilized. |
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| ▲ | jack_tripper 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Longer term this shouldn’t be the case though Long term I'll be dead anyway. To me the the actions taken in the present is most important that what maybe might happen 30 years from now since that's why everything is fucked in Europe, because everyone coasts on hopium for the long term instead of fixing the present. |
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| ▲ | jabl 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Sign of a rich and very developed country. You need to find another reason. Looking at IMF 2025 GDP per capita figures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... ): Norway: $92k Denmark: $77k Sweden: $62k Germany: $60k UK: $57k Finland: $56k So yeah, Denmark and particularly Norway are a bit richer than the others, but the others are in the same ballpark. If I had to bring up some particular reason, gas grids are more or less non-existent in the Nordics, and electricity is cheaper than in central Europe or UK. |
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| ▲ | dzhiurgis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Get an ERV - it will most likely have air filter. Such a life improvement to a point I'm actually waiting for winter now (in summer you have a problem of mosquitoes, house doesn't cool quickly enough by itself and if you close shades for sleeping - you don't get adequate ventilation). |
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| ▲ | bratwurst3000 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| air conditioning is also a heat pump. they cost way less then the air/water heatpumps and are easy and cheap to install. Since two years I heat with air conditioning and its super effective and cheap. edit// Hot water is generated by electric solar panels. 1200w are sufficent to have enough hot water for two persons |