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octocop 17 hours ago

Dumb question, why is the water in the Rhine warm?

Someone 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It not warm as in ”warmer than the typical living space”, but it is warmer than zero Kelvin, so heat can be extracted from it.

Doing that takes energy, that’s why it is called a heat pump. That moves heat from the water to an already warmer place, against a heat gradient, just as a water pump moves water against a gravity gradient.

If the water were warmer than your typical living space, they wouldn’t need a heat pump; a water pump to pump the water closer to where heat is needed would be sufficient.

kijin 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Practically, the water would need to be somewhat warmer than 0℃ because you don't want it to freeze and clog the plumbing after you have extracted a useful amount of thermal energy. :)

consp 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Depending on the contaminants, it's more likely a few degrees below 0C but you point still stands. Fish are removed as contaminant but minerals and pollution likely is not.

And normal water takes quite a bit of heat extraction to actually freeze if at 0C, maybe the device does not even extract enough. But you want to be on the safe side of course since clogging up your heat exchanger with ice (which expands) is not great.

(edit: and as noted in other reply pressure is a thing)

oceanplexian 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Fish are removed as contaminant

Why do I have a feeling this is one of those "green" ideas that has some horrible environmental consequence. One that could have been solved with a way simpler technology for far less money in exchange for a bit of efficiency loss.

kijin 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You also don't want to create an iceberg at the point where you dump the water back in the river.

ahofmann 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Moving water will get much colder than 0℃ before turning solid. -10℃ or even -25℃ are easily possible. If the water is also under pressure, it can get even colder.

fsckboy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I thought to supercool water, it needed to be completely still? am i confusing it with superheating?

greazy 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The river is not warm or warmer than the air. Heat pumps are amazing at extracting thermal energy. I think water is very dense compared to air, thus making the processes more efficient in such a large scale.

alextingle 17 hours ago | parent [-]

The best thing about using watercourses as your heat source for heat-pumps - the water flow naturally takes away your "colder" output and brings you more "warmer".

Ground source heat pumps are limited because the ground they have chilled stays stubbornly in the same place, so the only way you can extract more heat from it is to make it even colder, which gets less efficient. Watercourses don;t have that problem.

georgefrowny 17 hours ago | parent [-]

The opposite effect is also why thermal stations (including but not only nuclear) are usually on the coast or near large rivers: you can dump a lot of water heat into water and have it carried away.

Not always good for the local ecosystem without mitigation, but at least one Japanese reactor allowed local colonisation by tropical fish and local legend said the same about Sizewell.

Sizewell C claims to plan recover waste heat and use it for carbon capture somehow, about which all I can say is a big old hmmmmm.

kergonath 16 hours ago | parent [-]

> always good for the local ecosystem without mitigation, but at least one Japanese reactor allowed local colonisation by tropical fish and local legend said the same about Sizewell.

Not quite the same thing, but there is a tropical greenhouse in the south of France that used to be heated by cooling water from a nearby uranium enrichment facility: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_ferme_aux_crocodiles (unfortunately not available in English).

crote 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It has a decent bunch of thermal mass, so it takes quite a long time for it to reach air temperature during a cold snap or heat wave. This makes it a decent heat source during the winter and cold source during the summer - especially for short-term peaks.

You could get an even better result using the earth itself, but that is way harder to scale.

PunchyHamster 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It isn't. It's just warmer than air in winter

alextingle 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The air temperature isn't relevant.

pbmonster 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It is, since the obvious alternative to taking the heat from water would be taking the heat from the air or from the ground.

The air is colder in winter than the water, and the ground only provides a limited amount of heat before you can't extract any more. So water beats both.

georgefrowny 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is a bit relevant because if the air was warm enough you would be better building huge air source heat pumps.

And if it was really warm enough you wouldn't need heating in the first place.

17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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