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jaimex2 3 days ago

The government isn't helping you, they just pushed every child in Australia to un-moderated and decentralised social networks. Complete free for alls.

4chan, Mastedon, BlueSky, PeerTube, Pixelfed

They have millions of users. They're about to get more.

No, you can't block these. No, you can't order these to do anything.

nostrebored 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

This idea that regulation fails to destroy industries is farcical. Most examples of “failed regulation” like American prohibition were runaway successes as public policy. Whether it is good or desirable is a different question.

The idea that someone is going to make an engaging experience on a “decentralized” network is honestly a bit silly to me. The market potential of this business is low. Decentralized networks with much larger incentives have failed to capture critical mass.

There will be side effects, but social media has been so ridiculously corrosive to the welfare of teenagers that I can’t imagine a ban would be worse.

johnnyanmac 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Most examples of “failed regulation” like American prohibition were runaway successes as public policy.

You pick one of the worst examples? Prohibition drove a black market for spirits . the 21st amendment repealed it because the government missed out on hundreds of thousands in taxes.

The reason to make the law and repeal it were both awful. The lessons learned were all wrong. It's just awful all around (and I speak as someone that doesn't really drink much).

nostrebored 3 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, this is absolutely one post hoc interpretation of it. The black market for spirits absolutely pales in comparison to public health and legal data, which conclusively show that second order effects of drinking like liver disease, public intoxication, and domestic violence plummeted.

This prohibition era retcon is a way to justify the fact that people like to drink and there were many people who stood to make money on re-legalization.

Which is why I said the question of it being a good thing is different. I encourage you to look at the data, as someone who also enjoys to drink.

Government bans are surprisingly effective in most developed countries.

johnnyanmac 3 days ago | parent [-]

"success" can be viewed in different lenses. In your lens of "did it make America healthier", sure. I wouldn't be surprised.

My lens is "did America actually learn anything valuable from this period?". And all I see is "We The Government are fine poisoning our citizens as long as we profit from it". A lesson that passed on to cigarettes, then hard drugs, then fast food (which persists to this day), and now with social media. Then The Government wonders why no one trusts them to do the right thing.

In that lens, I'd say prohibition and its downstream effects on how to regulate in general was absolutely awful and damning.

nostrebored 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

That’s a fair interpretation! I meant in terms of the stated goals of the Prohibitionist movement. I imagine they would agree with both of us (and be very angry about it)

JoshTriplett 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> poisoning our citizens

*allowing our citizens to make their own choices about what they consume

komali2 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is that what happened with cigarettes?

Remember how pervasive cigarette ads used to be?

Human behavior is variable and can be influenced, even against our best interest.

At what point do we acknowledge advertising as a form of psychological attack that causes people to do harmful things they wouldn't otherwise do?

The government's role in this imo shouldn't be to allow corporations to try to convince people to hurt themselves and then to sell them things to hurt themselves with, but then turn around and restrict people's rights to slow down the self harm. Rather I believe the government should seek to annihilate corporations that try to harm the population.

Is not the implicit relationship between corporations, people, and government, such that corporations want to be allowed to exploit a population for profit in return for some nominal good, and the government allows that only so long as the good outweighs the harm?

Why not?

eesmith 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

May I interest you in my ReVitaleZ water? Every bottle is energized with radium!

I've got a marketing campaign ready that will sweep the nation and convince millions to ReVitaleZ!

nickpp 2 days ago | parent [-]

Oh, nothing like a little radiation fear mongering to convince the public they need government approval for every single drop of drink and byte of food we put into our bodies. It's for our own good, after all!

Meanwhile, years after the actual Radithor radium water [1] scandal, the very same government was merrily blowing up atomic bombs in open air, in the desert [2].

And even today there are crazy people around the world happily consuming radioactive gas in specially designed spas [3]. They should be locked up for their own good, the government always knows better!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor

[2] https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/downwind-upshot-knot...

[3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9073685/

eesmith 2 days ago | parent [-]

Nothing like a snakeoil-monger bemoaning pesky government regulations with misguided exaggerating of the dangers of Big Government.

I'm shocked the same government which supports global warming and mass species extinction, and which threatens to bomb "shithole countries" "back to the Stone age", has a less than perfect attitude about nuclear weapons. Shocked I say!

Next I suppose you'll say that this same government hasn't clamped down hard on coal power plants which, in addition to their CO2 emissions, generates ash which destroys waterways, kills people, and is full of radioactive waste?

I'm so glad our governments always know better than that!

It would be a shame if food and drug laws were in place mostly because even rich people and politicians can't ensure their food and drugs are safe.

It's time to take my protein powder supplements. I'm glad the government inspects every manufacturer so I don't have to worry about doing my own lead tests each time I buy some. Thank you Orrin Hatch for your diligence!

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The idea that someone is going to make an engaging experience on a “decentralized” network is honestly a bit silly to me. The market potential of this business is low. Decentralized networks with much larger incentives have failed to capture critical mass.

When decentralized networks win, they often win so big that they become invisible. AOL is dead, the web isn't. Email, the global telephone network, the internet itself, these are all decentralized networks.

The hardest part of doing this for social media is actually discovery. It's easier to show people an "engaging" feed when your algorithm has access to the full firehose to select from. But that doesn't mean doing it in a decentralized way is impossible, and if you pass a law that drives people away from centralized services, the incentive to do it goes up.

api 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The “engaging experience” is the entire problem. The fact that it’s harder to do addiction engineering on a decentralized network is a feature.

mx7zysuj4xew 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Aaannd then the mask came off, proving you were a moralistic authoritarian. I suppose you support cartels destabilizing entire nation-states with billions of criminal funds too

stackghost 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As others have mentioned it's the critical mass and the algorithmically-addicting dopamine treadmills that are the problem this law seeks to address.

ryan_lane 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What social networks are these? If they aren't complying with the law, they can (and should be) blocked.

You're also missing what folks keep saying: the network effect isn't there. It needs to be popular enough that there's social pressure to be there. If it's that large, it's going to be large enough to be on the radar and then be under enforcement.

Slippery-slope arguments, for the most part, exist to fear monger folks away from change, even when the argument itself is non-sensical.

johnnyanmac 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

>What social networks are these?

well for one: I find it humorous how this law has an exception for Roblox. That really speaks to how up to date lawmakers are on the situation (or worse: how easy it was for Roblox to pay them off). I don't see how it's a slippery slope when the corruption is before our very eyes.

ntSean 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Each company was required to put a statement to the eSafety commission explaining why they should be exempt from the law, even GitHub. The eSafety commission also have an open monitoring period where they'll repeal the law if it isn't working as intended, and will release research.

I don't think it's just corruption, there are people who are trying to do the right thing, even if flawed.

iamnothere 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Roblox AND DISCORD. Somehow YouTube is considered “dangerous” though.

anakaine 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

YouTube didn’t make it through because of how it actively pushes alpha male crap at teenage boys. The Tate brothers and others who push the whole toxic masculinity, man are superior, men must protect women even from themselves, to be a man you must be able to fight, men are owed a position of power and women should be subservient, etc. It was a very strong feature in the early debate, and something educators put in as part of their submission as being an extremely noticeable shift for young men, and those same young men quite consistently stating the same content they viewed.

YouTube’s tendency to push extreme rabbit holes and funnel towards extremism and conservatism in young men is what led to them being included.

chocoboaus3 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

"YouTube didn’t make it through because of how it actively pushes alpha male crap at teenage boys"

Which previously parents could blocking using the parental tools. Now they cannot because logged out will still show said videos.

The government are idiots

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"YouTube is targeted for a ban because it shows children conservative viewpoints" seems somehow simultaneously an obvious free speech violation and a proper own-goal for the conservatives pushing these rules.

OccamsMirror 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You seem to be telling on yourself if you think Andrew Tate's viewpoints are representative of conversative viewpoints and not just toxic misogyny.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent [-]

Anyone can find specific things to dispute about Tate's views, but "traditional gender roles exist for a reason" is obviously not the position associated with the left.

ryan_lane 2 days ago | parent [-]

You're putting Tate's views in an overly good light with the way you represent it. "traditional gender roles exist for a reason" is the very lightest possible way you can phrase his viewpoint.

He hates women, to the point of trafficking them. He's a predator and he spreads hate, and it reflects poorly on conservatives if they feel that represents their political views.

AnthonyMouse a day ago | parent [-]

There is a generic flaw in humanity that controversy brings popularity. The result is that if you take the core of something popular (e.g. the political beliefs of half the population) and then sprinkle some rage bait on top of it, you'll have an audience. This is the business model for the likes of Tate.

The problem is, it's also an asymmetric weapon when you try to ban that unevenly. If you censor Tate but not the likes of Kendi who use the same tricks, you're saying that it's fine for one side to play dirty but not the other, and that's how you get people mad. Which plays right into the hands of the demagogues.

So all you have to do is achieve perfect balance and censor only the bad things from both sides, right? Except that that's one of the things humans are incapable of actually doing, because of the intensely powerful incentive to censor the things you don't like more than the things you do, if anyone holds that power.

Which is why we have free speech. Because it's better to let every idiot flap their trap than to let anyone else decide who can't. And if you don't like what someone is saying, maybe try refuting it with arguments instead of trying to silence them.

ryan_lane 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"YouTube is targeted because it shows children hate content, which happens to be a popular viewpoint of conservatives."

Fixed that for you.

Popeyes 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

YouTube is just a content hose though and it does not care what it shows you, you can go down some dark routes with YouTube just by letting it play.

salawat 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Slippery-slope arguments,

Slippery slope arguments exist because the act of governing has the tendency to converge on ratchet effects. It never bloody loosens, do every damn inch has to be treated with maximal resistance.

ryan_lane 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, except that for the most part conservatives seem to be happy to watch their rights slide right down a hill when conservatives are in charge. See the entirety of US politics at this point.

Society already puts limits on children's access to media, their access to addictive substances, advertising that's allowed to be shown to them, etc. The internet, and especially social media, is a gap in the existing limits. This isn't a slippery slope, it's adding a missing set of compliance.

Social media is: media, addictive, shows unregulated advertising to them, is psychologically harmful, and their algorithms have been radicalizing them.

Regulation is absolutely needed here. I'd rather see tight regulation, rather than being blocked completely, but social media companies have been highly resistant to that. For example, they shouldn't be allowed to show advertising, they shouldn't be able to do tracking, they shouldn't be allowed to have an algorithm led feed, notifications should be mostly off by default (and any notification that is shown to primarily exist to make you open the app should be disallowed).

The problem with changes like that is that they destroy the network's engagement and remove their profit, and for the most part, it's changes adults would like to see as well. Making those changes for some countries laws would push other countries to introduce similar laws and not limit them to children.

fogj094j0923j4 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>What social networks are these?

That's the point, there are always fringe social networks you don't know, and they are probably x10 toxic than reddit comment sections.

ryan_lane 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's a bad point though, because those are fringe and don't have network effects that would pressure most children to join them. You become a social outcast if you don't participate in <popular social media of the day>, but the kids participating on fringe sites are likely already outcasts.

We should be aiming to remove purposely addictive things from our children's lives, and all currently popular social media platforms are addiction machines.