Feels like this is the curse of modern US politics. I'm convinced the majority of people that "want high speed rail in CA" don't live in CA. Further away they live, the stronger they will argue for why we should have it.

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OkayPhysicist 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You run in very different social circles than I do. The only complaint I have ever heard about California's high speed rail plan (as a life-long Bay Area resident) is how damn long it's taking because of the yokels claiming it'll annoy their cows and almonds.

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taeric 3 days ago | parent [-]

My assertion is most people arguing online about this do not live near the impacted areas. Happy to be proven wrong on this. I just have a lot of sour taste to the whole thing with how many people constantly harp on public transit, but then want me to see their brand new car.

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OkayPhysicist 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The SF-LA transit project isn't a replacement for driving, it's a replacement for flying. Cars are replaced by local transit, the CA high speed rail line goes through a whole lot of nothing (read: the worst farmland they could route through) between SF and LA. Are you sure you live around here if you're this off-base with the basic premise?

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taeric 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

People have a habit of arguing online that this would replace people's commutes.

Which, to be fair, people online have a habit of just arguing past each other.

	▲	OkayPhysicist 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		It might speed up the commutes of people coming into the bay from Gilroy, and it might make Madera a somewhat-viable commuter town (if you don't mind 2 hour commutes), but I can't imagine many people using it for daily travel who aren't already well-served by Amtrak/Caltrain

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panick21_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is completely the wrong way of thinking about it. Long distance and short distance transport form a symbiotic relationship.

And in most countries we wouldn't call multiple cities of 100k+ population 'nothing'.

HSR is the spine of the transportation network, that local and regional traffic docks to making a greater whole. It increases the reach and power of public transport as a whole.

For HSR to be successful, you need people using the in-between station for regional trips, not just end to end airplane like trips.

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yannyu 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Two things can be true:

1) I wish we had better rail transit in the bay area and to the areas surrounding the bay

2) I have to own a car to get to places in Northern California

These don't seem like remotely contradictory positions.

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taeric 3 days ago | parent [-]

Largely fair. Ish. If you are dreaming of Tokyo level public transit, though, you are dreaming of far fewer cars for the people that live there.

	▲	yannyu 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		It's a chicken and egg issue. We don't build dense, mixed-use housing and commercial, we don't build transit. There's no way to live a Tokyo-like lifestyle in 95% of California. And the places where you can are often exorbitantly expensive.

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panick21_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Of course because more people live outside of CA then inside. And lots of people talk about transport policy. Lots of countries talk about high speed rail and California is known globally.

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taeric 2 days ago | parent [-]

It isn't necessarily a problem one way or the other, I should add. The observation, though, is that people are far far more forceful and opinionated on the situation the further from the area that they are.

	▲	panick21_ a day ago \| parent [-]
		I'm not sure how you measured how far away everybody talking about it is. If seen more passion form Americans then from Europeans about HSR in California. And I don't think most people in China are hot on it. I guess there are some very passionate rail fan liberals in the Eastern united states that hope for true HSR on the East coast that really root for HSR. But then again I have heard plenty of Californians passionately denounce/advocate for the project. So I don't think your observation holds.

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bluGill 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just to defend myself (similar to what I said in a different thread): I live in an area that would be marginal for high speed rail, but I still want it. If the US can get a great high speed rail network it would make sense to bring that to me, but as one of the last lines built! If CA can't build a good HSR where it should obviously work out there is no way it is worth trying here. They have to make the mistakes and then learn from them (this is the harder part!) in order to bring something to me where there can be no mistakes.

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taeric 3 days ago | parent [-]

Don't get me wrong. I used transit for the majority of my career. Biked for as much of it. Love the ideas.

The VAST majority of people I would see have conversations about this seem to want others to take transit so that traffic is better for them in their car.

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bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

The vast majority of people I know have never lived where there was a transit system that would be useful for them. So of course they want other people to use it without planning on using it themselves. Give them a system that is worth using and they will use it (there will be a multi-year delay before they try/start using it though).

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taeric 3 days ago | parent [-]

I've lived in Atlanta and Seattle. Both have perfectly workable transit. Even if Atlanta does seem to have gotten a bit worse over the years.

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bluGill 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Workable is not a great endorsement. If things are not fast and frequent people will prefer to drive even if transit could work. Also both have workable transit only for some destinations - I don't live in either city, but I'd guess without looking getting downtown is easy but if your destination is one suburb over it is technically possible but you could baby crawl faster.

	▲	cogman10 3 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Yup, it's something I think people need to experience. I lived in the UK for 2 years without a car and it ultimately did not negatively impact me (other than needing to memorize local bus routes). I lived in towns as small as 10000 people (Newtown, Wales) and they had both a connected rail system and a couple of bus routes serving the town and connecting it to other towns. Buses absolutely can work in even quiet rural locations, they just need to be properly funded and prioritized. They also need to be subsidized. The American notion that public transit needs to either run net zero or turn a profit is backwards and fundamentally stopping it from working well.
	▲	taeric 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I mean, yes. But I hate to point out that even in Tokyo, having a car is faster than not. Just a lot more expensive.

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panick21_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Seattle LRT has about the same usage as some german systems trams that are like 20x smaller. For a whole lot of the population that life around Atlanta and Seattle the public transport isn't workable.

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taeric 2 days ago | parent [-]

It is workable for far more people than will make it work. Particularly in tech jobs.

The underlying issue remains that it is seen as a poor person option. As soon as people can afford a car, they get one.

Back when I didn't have a car, my future wife and I saw a comedian that literally had a joke about being above the poverty line of "do you take the bus?"

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panick21_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

The thing is, people are not ideological. If the car is 5x faster and nicer, then people will use it. People use what is convenient, most people don't pick public transport when it is 'workable' they pick it when it is actually good.

And the reason it seen as 'for poor' people is because you only use it when you can't get a car.

So the underlying issue is the overall quality of the service (frequency, reliability, comfort and so on).

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taeric 2 days ago | parent [-]

Ish. If the car costs 10x, then they will stick to not having one. See Tokyo.

Again, I lived for over a decade with a tech job and no car. In Atlanta. It is easily doable. Especially for younger people that don't have a family. When I got married and we started having kids, I never had "my" car. Stayed on transit and cycling to get to work.

It is frustrating, because I would be surrounded by progressive people at work that would go on about why transit doesn't work. But... it did. Just fine. You just can't also have a 4k square foot house at the same time. (I feel like I'm exaggerating, but that is literally the size of average home in some areas just around Seattle. My shared living in Atlanta was almost 1000 square feet. I remember dreaming of a 650 square foot "luxury apartment" someday.)

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panick21_ a day ago | parent [-]

If a car cost 10x but public transport is 20x worse then people will still buy cars unless they can't afford it.

Look it might be easily doable for you, but the data shows pretty clearly that if one thing is easier and faster then another, most people, not all people will pick what is easier and faster. There are always 10-20% of people who will just prefer one thing, no matter what. See people who ride bikes in horrible dangerous conditions threw traffic. You might be willing to, but most people are not.

But what you need is a system with enough quality that enough people use it so they can demand continued increases in quality.

	▲	taeric 18 hours ago \| parent [-]
		The data clearly shows that if you keep cars cheap, people use them. That is literally the point of this entire article. When they started making driving into the city more costly, more people started taking transit. Is literally the data. Even in places like Tokyo, you will find that the wealthy neighborhoods have cars. The catch is in Tokyo, this is enforced by law. If you can't show that you have a legal parking spot, you aren't allowed to register a car. That is a very steep hurdle that makes the vehicle far more than just 10x. And is a large part of why even the largely confusing mess of major transit offerings that will require different tickets works, there. In spite of that, commute times in Tokyo are, on average, still HIGHER than SF and NYC commute times. My commute time even on public transit in Atlanta was better than the average commute in Tokyo. I don't know how you want to start quantifying "worse" or "better." Are they "workable?" Yes. Absolutely. Will people use if they can afford to get and operate a car? No.